WIP in WIP, post your level screenshots!

[blackdog]

On 7/8/2020 at 7:14 PM, Soldat Du Christ said:

Ok cool, last q for today, is there any way to set up static cameras in your map so you can take the same frame perfect picture as the map develops? Or do you just have to try and recreate the same frame each time

You can place dev-cameras in the editor, they will take a screenshot as the map is loaded.

[Soldat Du Christ]

I feel like there are many engagements that almost require you to purchase equipment like flash or smokes or frags, or at least it makes it very difficult to push through choke points without them, all three chokes on dust 2 come to mind really. 

 

What if a checkpoints where balenced enough so that you don't HAVE to purchase equipment to even the odds? You don't HAVE to use a frag or molotov to check corners or make educated guesses because you are empowered as an indovidual to deduct the corners as you progress through a lane. You don't HAVE to flash before you break through a choke point because that engagements is nuanced and balenced for both teams.

 

I imagine the result of this would free up the players budgets to use towards more experiemental/ dynamic plays. What do you guys think?

[Freaky_Banana]

37 minutes ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

I imagine the result of this would free up the players budgets to use towards more experiemental/ dynamic plays. What do you guys think?

I'm fairly certain CS players would hate it.

They like what they're used to, and you can't exactly expect them to change their behavior either. Counter Strike is an incredibly established concept and at some point as a designer one really has to ask oneself, if the experience one intends to design is at the core of the game that one is working for. Maybe it just makes sense to realize some ideas in a different game, because the gameplay you want to enable is simply not what an engine or concept was built around. 

As I have expressed before, try your best, I would love to see something great come from a new approach like this, just don't set your expectations too high. 

PS: Also, if you would like to keep asking questions, maybe make a thread for it or add it to your current one? Posting here without any WIP to show kind of defeats this thread's purpose. At least that's my opinion on the matter.  

[Nakroma]

1 hour ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

I feel like there are many engagements that almost require you to purchase equipment like flash or smokes or frags, or at least it makes it very difficult to push through choke points without them, all three chokes on dust 2 come to mind really. 

 

What if a checkpoints where balenced enough so that you don't HAVE to purchase equipment to even the odds? You don't HAVE to use a frag or molotov to check corners or make educated guesses because you are empowered as an indovidual to deduct the corners as you progress through a lane. You don't HAVE to flash before you break through a choke point because that engagements is nuanced and balenced for both teams.

 

I imagine the result of this would free up the players budgets to use towards more experiemental/ dynamic plays. What do you guys think?

Not sure if I understand what you mean, you don't have to do that on any of the chokepoints on dust 2? Can't think of a single angle on dust 2 you can't check one by one on the top of my head (at least assuming both teams arrive there on time and no one has utility). Could you give an example what a chokepoint would look like vs. a dust 2 one for example?

[Soldat Du Christ]

Yeah ill stop after this response, i agree with you banana, once an identity is established it's hard to get players to open their minds to bigger and better things. This is not exclusive to csgo, in my experience most competitive scenes are like this.

 

And Nakroma, pushing A bomb site there are are several crates CT could be hiding behind, and both side of the choke exit CTs can sit in those corners and just wait.

 

Also if you push far right B bomb site, you almost always have to flash each time to guarantee a safe exit. I've seen both instances sooo many times. War Owl made a video about player roles and one of them was litteraly a suicide role because of how hard it is to break chokepoints. You have to send one guy in to die just to reveal the enemy locations so that the next guys will have the information they need in order to then properly advance.

 

CSGO is all about optimising very repetitive engagements and using every inch of leverage you could possibly squeeze out of the few options you have. And people seem to like this i guess

[Nakroma]

31 minutes ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Yeah ill stop after this response, i agree with you banana, once an identity is established it's hard to get players to open their minds to bigger and better things. This is not exclusive to csgo, in my experience most competitive scenes are like this.

 

And Nakroma, pushing A bomb site there are are several crates CT could be hiding behind, and both side of the choke exit CTs can sit in those corners and just wait.

 

Also if you push far right B bomb site, you almost always have to flash each time to guarantee a safe exit. I've seen both instances sooo many times. War Owl made a video about player roles and one of them was litteraly a suicide role because of how hard it is to break chokepoints. You have to send one guy in to die just to reveal the enemy locations so that the next guys will have the information they need in order to then properly advance.

 

CSGO is all about optimising very repetitive engagements and using every inch of leverage you could possibly squeeze out of the few options you have. And people seem to like this i guess

I'd argue removing that makes the game less dynamic. You're removing the positioning aspect of CS:GO with that and reduce it to 50/50 aim duels.

[sn0wsh00]

1 hour ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

CSGO is all about optimising very repetitive engagements and using every inch of leverage you could possibly squeeze out of the few options you have. And people seem to like this i guess

If you think CS:GO engagements are repetitive, it's actually possible to create CS:GO maps that can change its layout round-to-round. I actually made a guide on how to do just that using logic_case and func_brush entities.

Just make sure these variations are simple and very obvious, or else you'll get a situation like Havana where the variations caused the map to be confusing instead of interesting and exciting.

Edited July 14, 2020 by sn0wsh00
wording, punctuation

[Soldat Du Christ]

5 hours ago, Nakroma said:

I'd argue removing that makes the game less dynamic. You're removing the positioning aspect of CS:GO with that and reduce it to 50/50 aim duels.

I wouldn't remove anything, the idea is to add on the experience established not take away. The only difference is that you wouldn't HAVE to buy equipment just to break through a chokepoint. This would mean you can engage in much more liberating ways. Trust me, nobody enjoys being bait, dying at the start of a one life based match, and watching your teamates clean up after you. 

[Lizard]

12 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

What if a checkpoints where balenced enough so that you don't HAVE to purchase equipment to even the odds?

Then purchasing them will move  the odds the other way around. If the choke point is balanced by default using smokes will easily create an advantage for  one team or another...

[Vaya]

who buys utility 

[Soldat Du Christ]

4 hours ago, Lizard said:

Then purchasing them will move  the odds the other way around. If the choke point is balanced by default using smokes will easily create an advantage for  one team or another...

Are you saying that balancing chokepoints would make it too difficult for CTs to defend or something?

[Lizard]

8 minutes ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Are you saying that balancing chokepoints would make it too difficult for CTs to defend or something?

Of course. How do you want to balance a chokepoint anyway? Default strar for most cs maps is 2 - A, 2- B and 1 mid player. CT team is always harder because T's can just outnumber them on bombsites (full rush). This is why chokepoints are designed... to compensate advantage of player count on T team. And obviously that is why buying utility is a crucial part of tactics on T side.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Lizard

[Soldat Du Christ]

6 hours ago, Lizard said:

Of course. How do you want to balance a chokepoint anyway? Default strar for most cs maps is 2 - A, 2- B and 1 mid player. CT team is always harder because T's can just outnumber them on bombsites (full rush). This is why chokepoints are designed... to compensate advantage of player count on T team. And obviously that is why buying utility is a crucial part of tactics on T side.

Within the context of Dust 2, I can see your point. The map is room based and heavely segmented, even between both bomb sites. So CTs don't really know which bomb site they will have to defend. This is why you guys need to start thinking outside the box. Most of the time in CS maps: where you can MOVE is synonymous with where you can SEE and where you can SHOOT. An exception to this i've seen very rarely is your standard window that you can SEE and SHOOT through but you can't MOVE through it.

 

You can do a lot of cool stuff by segmenting these fundamentals. Like opening up the lines of sight while still having linear pathing to empower players who want to gather intel by taking up certain advantageous positions.

 

Alright this is for real my last off topic post in waywo, but i just want you guys to open your minds and think backwards for a change, and not forwards off of what little you've been provided with. You don't know what you don't know right? In order to have new ideas you need to look outside of the map design you are familiar with and re think the fundamentals   

 

Or just keep remaking Dust 2, its up to you!

Edited July 15, 2020 by Soldat Du Christ

[Harry Godden]

get out of here man

[blackdog]

5 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

Or just keep remaking Dust 2, its up to you!

Oh god, this is Tynnyri when he doesn’t drink energy drinks