Corona Virus

[FMPONE]

I can respect the decision to voluntarily contract polio, but not COVID-19. It's a personal preference thing.

[RaVaGe]

8 hours ago, Pericolos0 said:

you have the right not to get vaccinated but that choice doesn't deserve any respect lmao

its not the big pandora's box you think it is. We live in a society. You don't want to get vaccinated and do the barest minimum effort to help protect the people around you? Maybe you don't get to go to the restaurant then.

The barest minimum effort ? What effort lol, don't you think it's just a totally different subject here ? I believe it's a total distrust and a complete rejection of the actual system by a big part of the population, it's not a question wether or not you want to protect to people around you, again i'm not against vaccines, but I just don't get that obsession to sting all the fucking planet, free to you to vaccinate yourself and your childrens with that (albeit i'm pretty sure you won't, nor you don't have any).

Edited August 2, 2021 by RaVaGe

[blackdog]

On 7/31/2021 at 9:45 AM, ThunderKeil said:

I'm not saying that's a good analogue for the current vaccine discussion, but I will say that was an exceptionally poor choice of comparison

As poor as the promoters of a vaccine passport/green pass/whathaveyou ridiculing the opposers by arguing “doesn’t a traffic light take away your freedom?”

I don’t know if abroad there is this tone of conversation, but that’s in Italy.

11 hours ago, Pericolos0 said:

its not the big pandora's box you think it is.

…no? In the last few days the White House has in succession announced they want to blacklist content themselves on social, as well as coordinating with phone carriers to look into private text messages for misinformation.

That sounds like United States of China to me.

[leplubodeslapin]

3 hours ago, RaVaGe said:

The barest minimum effort ? What effort lol, don't you think it's just a totally different subject here ? I believe it's a total distrust and a complete rejection of the actual system by a big part of the population, it's not a question wether or not you want to protect to people around you, again i'm not against vaccines, but I just don't get that obsession to sting all the fucking planet, free to you to vaccinate yourself and your childrens with that (albeit i'm pretty sure you won't, nor you don't have any).

I might be wrong, i'm not an expert, but that's how i understand things :

The way a vaccine works is by using it on a portion of the population in order to reduce the propagation rate.

We don't know everything but it's been a while already, and we know that this portion ideally should be as large as possible for it to be as effective as possible, the same way other vaccines required it before and made deseases practically disappear.
We know that it has an effect on the individuals aswell, to nullify the risk for the covid to put you in a serious situation where you would have to be taken in charge by ICUs. So vaccinating one person means this person won't have to be taken in charge by them, and won't risk to overload the ICUs (which is crucial for public health).

 

We don't know for sure that being vaccinated prevents the spread, because you technically could still carry the virus (maybe). But even if it just reduces this duration, because you don't experience its effects, and therefore limits the amount of people you potentially expose to the virus, it's already a big win against the spread.

We also now have quite a a lot of people who got vaccinated, and the secondary effects and risks are completely negligeable, especially putting against the risk of getting hurt from the covid itself (which is much larger).

 

So it's not just about individuals clearly, getting vaccinated (if you can) is, to me, a public liability.
We all have witnessed what covid does and it baffles me that despite all the shit we all went through, and despite the fact that we have a solution for it that is greatly effective (up to now) and with a very low risk, we don't all embrace it.

 

 

I feel like, because a vaccine is done through a sting and not just a medicine to swallow, it feels more intrusive and dangerous.
That doesn't make much sense (you could kill someone by making him eat a medicine, they're both as intrusive) but that's a feeling, guts speaking. We have to think and realize this kind of bias.

 

Also simple question : aren't there already mandatory vaccines where you guys live ? It's been like that for a long time, preventing plenty of deaths.
If so, how is covid's vaccine "a total distrust and a complete rejection of the actual system" ? The system already uses vaccine no ?
My bad I read it wrong.
A distruct and rejection of the system from a part of population. Yes i can understand that.
Unfortunately all of this isn't politics but i guess it's hard to distinguish it when it's the politics that make such rules. Sorry for reading this wrong

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by leplubodeslapin

[blackdog]

1 hour ago, ThunderKeil said:

Didn't he already announce his plans for a ''truth council'' during the election, anyway?

No point pretending to be surprised now

I have no idea, that’s news to me, but also beside the point.

Implementation is key: there’s a massive chasm between a “truth council” that is some sort of fact-checking entity that publishes material on different subjects on the White House blog VS spying on your private conversations.

I don’t imagine they announced anything about that in the debates, I can’t imagine that if they said “I want to snoop in your private SMS and various messaging conversations to see if you are spreading misinformation” that people would be very happy, and I don’t imagine a great % of those who voted knows about this now. Most people “fire and forget” when they vote.

[Buddy]

US is China already except it has a little more finesse.

[FMPONE]

I get all my news from Mapcore, so at this point I'm just confused

but in all seriousness, this delta variant stuff is such a bummer. I feel like Corona went from a historical event to something that is actively tearing gaping holes in society. Thinking of conspiracy stuff, it's going to be hard to rebuild trust in institutions when actual laws or the practical reality says "interact with as few human beings as possible." I went from thinking this would take a year or two to recover from, to wondering if and when it will ever end.

Vaccination just doesn't seem like the finish line anymore, not if vaccinated people can still get the disease. Maybe the saving grace is, that infections don't seem severe among the vaccinated. Still going to be with us for a long, long time then.

[Buddy]

5 hours ago, FMPONE said:

I get all my news from Mapcore

Concerning. lol. Perhaps still better than corporate filtered news from mainstream sites

[csWaldo]

Not a personal thing. I just want to respond to those points because they are dumb.

On 7/30/2021 at 3:06 PM, Radu said:

- it's not a regular vaccine ("Vaccines contain weakened or inactive parts of a particular organism (antigen) that triggers an immune response within the body. Newer vaccines contain the blueprint for producing antigens rather than the antigen itself". source: https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/how-do-vaccines-work)

This says nothing about how safe or effective the vaccine is. Technology is improving and so are vaccines. "Newer" technologies like mRNA vaccines have been in research for decades and were a technology that would have come up with or without covid. Covid simply gave mRNA vaccines the reason, money and tons of test and control cases to quickly produce products from an already existing tech.

Sure you always want to be cautious with new technologies. That is why the covid vaccines have undergone big trials like any other vaccine does. That is why the vaccinated population is being monitored for (long term) side effects. That is why when thrombosis was discovered as a possible side effect many countries temporarily stopped using AstraZeneca until the risk could be further quantified.

"it's not a regular vaccine" might sound scary, but it is a terrible reason to dismiss the vaccine, because it is not founded on actual risks or benefits but simply on the gut instinct of "new = bad".

 

On 7/30/2021 at 3:06 PM, Radu said:

- long term effects are not known (with several doctors telling them to wait to see what happens after this experiment)

Several doctors are telling me I can lose 50 pounds in 2 weeks if I believe everything I see.

The long term effects of covid are not well known either, but what we know paints a clear picture of what is called "long covid". It can leave you physically and mentally impaired and in rehab for many months after the infection has cleared. Long covid seemingly gets much more likely if you have a severe case of covid and / or end up in the hospital / ICU.

The vaccines have no documented effects comparable to long covid. They protect very well against severe cases and going to the ICU. Getting the vaccine will very likely vastly reduce your risk of suffering long term effects from this pandemic.

Again speculating that a new thing might have bad long term effects weighs with no real data to back that up weighs in very poorly against the actual, well documented risks and benefits of the deases and the vaccines.

 

On 7/30/2021 at 3:06 PM, Radu said:

- the vaccine is about control, not health, and cutting rights little by little (arguing that you should have the freedom to decide what to do with your body, not be forced to get the vaccine in order to keep your job)

Source? There is no real data or evidence to believe in this. It's purely speculative. Personally I would find this point a lot scarier if it wasn't mostly perpetuated by far right groups and the mouth breathers that reject wearing a face mask in tight, crowded spaces during a pandemic.

Your freedom ends where another persons freedom begins. The right to a healthy body and life weighs higher than the right to not take basic measures to prevent dangerous diseases during a pandemic.

No-one should be forced to get the vaccine. However if your personal decisions are a danger to other peoples health, you should draw the according consequences to your actions and not go anywhere where many people meet without at least getting tested first. And the state should be enforcing this because people can't even be trusted with wearing a face mask in a crowded tram during a deadly pandemic.

Edited August 5, 2021 by csWaldo

[Radu]

Waldo laying down the facts, especially that last one. I don't think a lot of people would put the collective first before themselves.

One thing that really didn't help with people's fears are the few cases of thrombosis associated with AstraZeneca. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Radu

[csWaldo]

It's weird how that works. Suffering a deadly thrombosis from a vaccine somehow feels scarier than getting covid.

I dont know how others feel about this but somehow in my head I always thought if I get covid I won't get a severe case. However when I hear about vaccination side effects I somehow assume I'll be among the people getting them.

In reality the virus leaves you with a much higher chance of thrombosis than the vaccine does. So even when you don't consider all the other potential harms of an infection, getting the vaccine still comes out on top.

Luckily most of my friends and my entire close family are vaccinated now. Seems like Covid will eventually turn into another seasonal respiratory disease we just have to live with but at least we will be pretty well protected from severe cases and long term harm.

I just wish we did a better job with reasonable measures for public events and spaces. The infrastructure for testing and vaccination is pretty good now. Both seem like great measures to reduce risk from larger gatherings, especially when used together.

But somehow most official restrictions still target minimum distance or number of people per amount of space. In my experience those rules are often poorly enforced if at all and given the number of people I see disregarding even personal space let alone 1.5 meters of distance, I doubt their efficiency is very high.

Wouldn't mind sitting right next to vaccinated and or tested people in a restaurant again but I don't feel very safe sitting with people of unknown status that can't even manage to pull a face mask over their breathing holes.

Edited August 5, 2021 by csWaldo

[AlexM]

9 hours ago, Radu said:

Waldo laying down the facts, especially that last one. I don't think a lot of people would put the collective first before themselves.

That's one of the most interesting things for me from this whole covid thing. The differences between individualist and collectivist societies and how it played out in regards to the virus.

[blackdog]

On 8/5/2021 at 12:42 AM, Pericolos0 said:

This sounds insane and would be huge news if true. all I can find about it is a comment taken out of context and spun into fearmongering by conservative pundits (of course).

Might be worth reassessing where you get your "news"

 

EDIT: also, please don't derail the thread with conspiracy stuff guys. There's EOT for that 

I don't have intention to derail the conversation, but I'd argue this stuff is in the realm of the pandemic response, so it seems fair discussion... just like we were talking of "covid pass" (or whatever is called in any given country).

Also, sorry, but I don't find acceptable playing with airquotes, implying, and expect people to shut up about it.

To respond to your critique about sources: "flagging content on Facebook" is something straight out of the White House press conference (extract), while the SMS rumor was posted by Politico (which is labelled as left leaning from what I've seen).
For the record, I always try to compare key news stories from different sources, I'm aware of biases.

I'm also always happy to be proven wrong, especially if it means discovering the situation is better than expected.
But we probably all agree we've seen some insane stuff happening throughout this emergency, so I don't want to discount news on the basis of "how insane it would be" (I mean, unless it's really insane stuff, like "the vaccine contains microchips")... we probably all noticed that politicians adopt a strategy of throwing out wild ideas to test the ground, and eventually reel back to where they actually wanted to land, making people feel relieved cos "it could've been worse".

I hope it's clear from the above I don't have the interest in shifting the topic into a purely political direction, and even less say "one side is better than the other" and as far as I'm concerned I've said what I needed to say

[Izuno]

Don't worry everyone. Truth eventually makes the kill.

[RaVaGe]

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