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MikeGon

Let's talk about the awkward "unclear rule" issue

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As far as I know only two maps were disqualified because of it. Both of them had missing models when I looked at them at the deadline, which was a certain exclusion criteria for me when judging, since they made the maps largely unplayable. So I don't think there is that much of an issue in this case as it may seem when reading this thread.

Anyway, in hindsight I agree that the wording was a bit too ambiguous and could've been better,... certainly something to be improved upon in future competitions.

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36 minutes ago, 'RZL said:

As far as I know only two maps were disqualified because of it. Both of them had missing models when I looked at them at the deadline, which was a certain exclusion criteria for me when judging, since they made the maps largely unplayable. So I don't think there is that much of an issue in this case as it may seem when reading this thread.

Anyway, in hindsight I agree that the wording was a bit too ambiguous and could've been better,... certainly something to be improved upon in future competitions.

so even if you ignored the deadline thing the map was still unusable? makes sense. Would have been good for a judge to say 'this map has been DQ'd for blah' too in the submission thread IMO. Communication is key to transparency.

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1 hour ago, Vaya said:

I just want to say the contest has been amazing sans this one issue.

I agree 100% and I am thankful for it! It was great to develop a map while shooting for a goal, I absolutely loved it!

Plus I learned a lot while doing so.

 

6 hours ago, text_fish said:
6 hours ago, MikeGon said:

I was trusting the official, detailed, and clear rules post

Hang on, are you saying they're clear or unclear?

What I meant is that it was clear to me at that point.

 

2 hours ago, gav said:

The thing wit the workshop it dynamically updates each subscription so the judges version also updates. Its probably unrealistic to think all the judges would copy and paste 100 or so  bsp's  to a separate folder from the workshop folder.  

Just disconnect steam and that's it (disable auto-updates or whatever). Then you got all the time you want to backup and start evaluating.

And yes, a downside to this method is that the last guys in the list get a couple more minutes, since it takes a while to go through the list and pick them up one by one... but is that really an issue? What is minutes or an hour, next to the hundreds of hour of work it took to build the project?

It's not like someone could gain some major advantage from that - Developing, debugging, building and pushing an update takes hours anyways!
 
But logistics aside -
The issue at hand is with the rules themselves. Some people got hosed because of the wording and that's not fair...
 
We can't go back in time, but all I want is for everybody to have a better contest next time. <3
 

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3 hours ago, 'RZL said:

As far as I know only two maps were disqualified because of it. Both of them had missing models when I looked at them at the deadline, which was a certain exclusion criteria for me when judging, since they made the maps largely unplayable. So I don't think there is that much of an issue in this case as it may seem when reading this thread.

If what you are saying is accurate, then that can't be my map. It was 100% clean and final on deadline day.

 

3 hours ago, 'RZL said:

Anyway, in hindsight I agree that the wording was a bit too ambiguous and could've been better,... certainly something to be improved upon in future competitions.

We live and learn :)

I look forward to participate in the next one then!

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6 hours ago, MikeGon said:

Just disconnect steam and that's it (disable auto-updates or whatever). Then you got all the time you want to backup and start evaluating.

I just want to point out that the judges are human who are in different time zones / working different hours than each other. Simply disabling steam wouldn't work considering they may not all log-in / start or close steam at the same time. 

There was a period of 10 days after the deadline for the judges to judge the maps and that's probably why it was so long after that the 10 were announced.

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6 hours ago, MikeGon said:

is that really an issue?

Trust me, it could be turned in to an issue by somebody who disagreed with a matter of seconds, minutes or hours. I've seen a lot of online community competitions run over the years and there is always at least one contestant who vociferously feels that they were treated unfairly. I can confidently say that 99% of the time it came down to a misinterpretation of the original rules, by somebody who didn't take the necessary time to fully comprehend the job of the judges. The sad thing is, this usually results in well-meaning volunteers choosing not to run future competitions.

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Hey @MikeGon, I'm sad about your disqualification, haven't tried your map but looks good. You certainly poured a lot of effort and that's admirable. I hope discussing the issue here is helping cos I can only imagine how much it burns.

My thinking is completely in line with what @text_fish wrote. I have never seen any contest letting people update/review their submission after the deadline; that's just how it works, from the local poetry contest to public administration contracts... imagine if a builder was allowed to change their offer (=submission) for a multi-million contract. You wouldn't know if they completely changed their offer or just a comma. Here map judges wouldn't know if you just fixed an ambience sound or major brushwork.

What @leplubodeslapin suggested can technically work but is completely impractical and a very tough ask. That was a much bigger assumption than thinking you can't submit after the deadline!

I hope that you'll find the contest thought you more than what you lost by not passing to the finalists stage and don't think twice to participate again :)

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@text_fish, I understand that you must be tired of seeing "another one of those", but certainly here you can see that this is justified.

Put yourself in the shoes of a first-time contestant, read the contest rule #9 again and tell me it isn't confusing.

 

On 12/13/2017 at 4:48 PM, blackdog said:

What @leplubodeslapin suggested can technically work but is completely impractical and a very tough ask. That was a much bigger assumption than thinking you can't submit after the deadline!

Btw guys, I am not suggesting we change the method, never was. This was simply my assumption on how this would work, based on previous experiences that I had.

Recruiters for instance often have to send out job tests, and pick them up when they come in. If the deadline is at midnight they'll pick them up the next morning, and that's it. I often updated my test submissions for recruiters after the deadline, and never had any problems. I guess they simply picked them up the day after, and didn't care at all. It's very casual. Got their test? Yep- perfect.

 

This was my first online contest though. I don't have that baggage you guys have gained by seeing past contests. I don't have the "It always works like this so obviously..."

People will read the rules very literally on their first time- because they have no other points of reference.

 

I do agree that the method we're currently using is better for dealing with tons and tons of submissions. Again whatever it is, it just needs to be clear on paper :)

Edited by MikeGon

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I read the rule number 9 and i understand from it that any update after the deadline will not be taken into consideration, so that means to me that they will not matter. It says nothing about DQ.

I would have done the same as MikeGon, being fully convinced that i won't be disqualified.

ps

English is not my native language and maybe i am wrong, maybe it's an English expression that i don't understand. The native speakers should correct me if i'm wrong. Thank you!

Edited by Serialmapper

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What you are saying, I understand - and most certainly sympathise with and overall am sorry I visited this post as late as I have. Santa Claus got in the way...but your point is valid, in my humble opinion. I am assuming you were "prepared" for the emotional pain of having your map ripped apart, yet this did not happen...kinda like attending a job interview, and missing the bus, or the cabbie gets lost and you miss your shot. Not fun.

As mappers, that is part of the emotional compiling process. It just is. Work is not lost - but in instances such as this, I do believe and hope there should always be room for "Honourable Mentions" or, those who missed the deadlines, for whatever reason.

We need rules, and the opportunity for clarification - I do feel this was always present for this contest, yet do wish I could capitulate in circumstances like this, but understand it perhaps creates an unfairness to those who submit post-deadline updates on the Steam Workshop. Sorry.

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