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MikeGon

Let's talk about the awkward "unclear rule" issue

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So basically I got disqualified because I updated my map after the deadline, while being 100% sure this was allowed:

Ok so there's this point on the rules page:

On 5/23/2017 at 12:51 PM, MapCore said:

Changes or updates to Workshop maps will not be considered after November 30, 2017 (for Top 10) and January 10, 2018 (for Top 4).

 

Idk about you, but I read that has:

"We will not judge the map based on updates you do after the deadline."

 

Not: "You will get disqualified if you update your map after the deadline"

 You could almost say that this wording encourages updating the map, it almost sounds like "You can submit updates all you want - we just won't look at them." - Reassuring us that it won't impact anything.

 

I am "disappointed", to say the least - especially because I think Opal would have had a chance of making top 10. Having my map actually being analysed, and placed 11th would have felt SO MUCH better.

 

I'm not sure if I want to participate in another contest like this, when I put my heart and soul into a project every single day for six month, only to get washed away based on a coin toss, of whether or not I figured out that a rule doesn't say what it's supposed to say!

I can't pump in all my resources into something and get hosed based on an external factor. That's a just terrible waste.

 

Heck in October I even took a week off from my job entirely for this contest, in order to sprint for 9 days full-time with a strict schedule.

If one of the judges would have PMed me to say - "Huh dude- What's going on? Why did you update your map? This is not allowed!" I would have sent you a backup version from the day of the deadline, with timestamp proof. 

 

...Now I don't want this to be a rant, I just had to unpack all the info, so we can fix the problem. I want this to be constructive.

 

Aside from that, I think the contest was fantastic, and I love the maps we've built.

 

I'm sorry if this post feels like negative energy - but I want to turn it into positive.

Honestly. :)

Mike

 

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1 hour ago, Harry Poster said:

How can they judge your map without an update? Workshop is not featuring things like "Download past updates". Imo.

My instinct on how they would go about it was:

They pick them up right on deadline day, and then they don't update (disable auto-updates, make a backup, etc.)

Just like online tests for job interviews and whatnot...

Edited by MikeGon

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Without wishing to sound mean, I feel like just a tiny amount of convergent thinking would have avoided your disappointment. Put yourself in the contest organisers shoes for just a split second. How are a bunch of people completely unaffiliated to Steam supposed to instantly download/backup 100 submissions? Hell, consider the fact that they had no idea how many submissions there would actually be and you have something that just can't be planned for.

I guess ultimately in future you just have to assume full responsibility for every stage of your submission and if you're in any doubt whatsoever about the rules, question them before the deadline. Most importantly, always remember that these competitions are organised/run largely by volunteers trying to do something good for the community, so they don't have a big magic "Download all the maps now" button built in to their Steam account.

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I have to disagree with you @text_fish

There's nothing difficult in making a backup of all the BSP right after the deadline and share it with other judges on a server/cloud, it just would have taken a little bit of time (1 hour MAX) and then time to upload the BSP somewhere afterwards. The judges would have been able to do of that, i'm sure of it, it just wasn't planned this way.

I would have done the same as MikeGon, this rule does sound like "you can update if you want afterwards but we will judge the version you sent at the time of the deadline anyway" to me, it's misleading.

I don't know about your map and if it should have been top 10 or top 20 but, in any case, that's realy frustrating for you, i understand that. And I also understand that judges must be strict with rules (what has been done with Fiorina is harsh but fair for example). Maybe something can be done here :???:

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Why would I have to ponder and theorize on how they will operate?

I was trusting the official, detailed, and clear rules post. To me that wins over any theory and assumption one could make. I base myself on what's on paper.

Isn't that the whole point of writing down nice rules like that? Avoiding confusion?

 

Even if I would have had this thought, I would have been like "Nope. Follow what's on the brief." and I would have stuck to how it is written!

43 minutes ago, text_fish said:

I guess ultimately in future you just have to assume full responsibility for every stage of your submission and if you're in any doubt whatsoever about the rules, question them before the deadline.

I had no doubts. Everything was clear to me and that's exactly my point.

 

I'm not the only one who had problems with this. To quote Vaya:

On 12/11/2017 at 4:00 AM, Vaya said:

It wasn't 100% clear. We had a bunch of confused people about it.

 

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50 minutes ago, leplubodeslapin said:

There's nothing difficult in making a backup of all the BSP right after the deadline and share it with other judges on a server/cloud,

Hopefully you can work with the organisers to set this system up before the next competition then, because I'm sure it would be appreciated.

38 minutes ago, MikeGon said:

I was trusting the official, detailed, and clear rules post

Hang on, are you saying they're clear or unclear?

Look clearly everything's open to interpretation, especially on the internet where there are language barriers to negotiate for some people. We can agree on that and it's unfortunate that your interpretation was wrong, but I think considering 100 entrants managed to follow the rules without a problem there isn't really much wrong with how they were written. Personally I didn't get even close to making the deadline, but in my mind there was no doubt whatsoever about the meaning of the rules when I read them. It just makes sense to me that they would ask us not to update our workshop files after the deadline, and I don't know why anybody would assume that they have a system in place to download the submissions in one go.

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8 minutes ago, text_fish said:

Hopefully you can work with the organisers to set this system up before the next competition then, because I'm sure it would be appreciated.

[...]

and I don't know why anybody would assume that they have a system in place to download the submissions in one go.

There's no complex system needed, just copy the BSP and NAV from workshop/id folders to another folder right after the deadline. It just takes time because you have to check for map IDs but that's basically it.

 

8 minutes ago, text_fish said:

but I think considering 100 entrants managed to follow the rules without a problem there isn't really much wrong with how they were written.

You just can't assume stuff like that. If for anything 99% of people are wrong and 1% is right, it doesn't mean that the 99% must be right. It doesn't mean anything, even if it was confusing for only 1 person then that would be enough to discuss about it. But according to Vaya, many people found this rule confusing.

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14 minutes ago, leplubodeslapin said:

just copy the BSP and NAV from workshop/id folders to another folder right after the deadline

Correction:

  • Wait until the very end of the deadline (to the second, because obviously somebody will complain if they start early or late)
  • Open every WIP post that had a recent update to see if they declared themselves finished before the deadline.
  • Subscribe to those 100ish submissions and download them all.
  • Backup the map files and send them out to the rest of the judges.
  • Hope that in the meantime, nobody decided to upload a new version of their map because hey, what's the difference between a minute and an hour?

You're right, that wouldn't have been impossible, but what lunatic would decide to do that when they and all the rest of the judges can just subscribe to the winning maps and launch them for testing straight from csgo's inbuilt UI?

 

22 minutes ago, leplubodeslapin said:

You just can't assume stuff like that.

That's a fair point. Sadly MikeGon's assumption cost him a lot more than mine did.

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1 hour ago, text_fish said:

Correction:

  • Wait until the very end of the deadline (to the second, because obviously somebody will complain if they start early or late)
  • Open every WIP post that had a recent update to see if they declared themselves finished before the deadline.
  • Subscribe to those 100ish submissions and download them all.
  • Backup the map files and send them out to the rest of the judges.
  • Hope that in the meantime, nobody decided to upload a new version of their map because hey, what's the difference between a minute and an hour?

Or ...

  • Subscribe to every map as soon as you get a workshop link on the forum, BEFORE the deadline
  • Let Steam download, and eventualy update, maps by itself before the deadline
  • Disconnect from steam at the exact moment of the deadline
  • Copy/paste BSP files somewhere else and take all the time you need to share it with other judges

I do not mean that it's judges fault not to do that, i just want to point out that it's doable and that for any potential future constest this can be improved.

1 hour ago, Vaya said:

I believe 5 or 6 were DQ due to this issue. that's 5% or so

Which might represent a drastic amount of hours of work, not negligible at all.

Edited by leplubodeslapin

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1 minute ago, leplubodeslapin said:

Or ...

  • Subscribe to every map as soon as you get a workshop link on the forum, BEFORE the deadline
  • Let Steam download, and eventualy update, maps by itself before the deadline
  • Disconnect from steam at the exact moment of the deadline
  • Copy/paste BSP files

I do not mean that it's judges fault not to do that, i just want to point out that it's doable and that for any potential future constest this can be improved.

Which might represent a drastic amount of hours of work, not negligible at all.

yup this is my thinking. 6 people or so didn't understand the rules, so they weren't clear enough.

 

I just want to say the contest has been amazing sans this one issue.

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JD did it just right. He left Biome as submitted for the contest. He then kept working on the new update but didn't touch the contest version he submitted.

  The thing wit the workshop it dynamically updates each subscription so the judges version also updates. Its probably unrealistic to think all the judges would copy and paste 100 or so  bsp's  to a separate folder from the workshop folder.  

Edited by gav

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