What is the best game to create maps for?

[blackdog]

At the end of the day, this is the kind of question procrastinators like me ask themselves all the time to not start something @Taylor

[Mitch Mitchell]

On 29/08/2016 at 11:05 AM, Taylor said:

I guess I don't really understand the end goal. If you're looking to do some hobbyist level design it should be a personal question, really. You're doing this for your own entertainment so your personal investment in a game should trump any kind of measure of popularity. If you want to make Doom WADs or CS:GO knife maps go and do that.

If you're looking for a path into The Biz then most of the important skills you learn making levels are transferable. The interface will change, everything has its own quirks, the scripting language will be different, etc. But you can pick this up fast once you've got the foundation down. Going lower level will only help.

I understand your point, and it may surprise you to read that I also respect it. So, here is an expansion on your question.

I want to map and am finding it extremely difficult to map for games which:

1. Already have an established series of rotation maps, so are saturated by design.
2. Have convoluted BSP/GEO/CSG pipelines.

My reasons:

1. Games that have an established series of rotation maps do not yield feedback, as they are saturated by design based on the game mechanics. On one extreme we have CS:GO and de_dust2, the other we have UT4alpha...and a slim playerbase with nuance requirements.
2. Ridiculously bad tools extend the amount of time it takes to map, and therefore get feedback.

I want to get better at mapping, and cannot do that with the two above points being as they are.

I am looking for a new game to map for. One which has good tools, and does not have a community which have naunced requirements, making all maps that do not fit into a narrow paradigm fail and fall into obscurity.

I am talking with a company right now, using the UE4 engine, so perhaps this question is moot.

[FrieChamp]

On 2. September 2016 at 5:13 PM, Mitch Mitchell said:

I understand your point, and it may surprise you to read that I also respect it. So, here is an expansion on your question.

I want to map and am finding it extremely difficult to map for games which:

1. Already have an established series of rotation maps, so are saturated by design.
2. Have convoluted BSP/GEO/CSG pipelines.

My reasons:

1. Games that have an established series of rotation maps do not yield feedback, as they are saturated by design based on the game mechanics. On one extreme we have CS:GO and de_dust2, the other we have UT4alpha...and a slim playerbase with nuance requirements.
2. Ridiculously bad tools extend the amount of time it takes to map, and therefore get feedback.

I want to get better at mapping, and cannot do that with the two above points being as they are.

I am looking for a new game to map for. One which has good tools, and does not have a community which have naunced requirements, making all maps that do not fit into a narrow paradigm fail and fall into obscurity.

I am talking with a company right now, using the UE4 engine, so perhaps this question is moot.

Sorry, but I fail to see how you cannot get better at mapping with the "reasons" you cited. Of course you can create maps and practise your skills with bad/old tools. It is just more painful and, I agree, will probably take you longer to get it where you want it to be, but people on here do it all the time (not even talking about obscure communities still making levels for 'Soldier of Fortune' in Notepad).

Why can't you become a better level designer by creating a map for the new UT? The community doesn't allow you to be creative enough? Fair enough, it's your free time. I think it would be a good challenge and demonstrate that you can understand an esport-oriented game's mechanics (and metrics) well enough to create maps for it. Might also prepare you for directors with "nuance requirements", should you choose to do this professionally some day.

You are looking for a new game with a big community, with great tools, but no custom maps, there needs to be an opportunity for you to create sth. new etc. etc. ... You are looking for a unicorn and making excuses. I think you should either do it to realize a fun/crazy idea for a game that you enjoy (for the hell of it) or to demonstrate that you can analyze the design of succesful levels and finish own creations of similar quality. But in the end, it's all up to you ofc  

[Mitch Mitchell]

13 hours ago, FrieChamp said:

Abridged

It's very simple, to get better requires feedback.

Communities are unwilling to feedback if a design is not like a map already on rotation. You either get minimal feedback from a few people who are generally awesome people who understand the reciprocal nature of map design (small community), or you get lopsided feedback as a map is not like an existing paradigm and the design gets lost in a sea of maps (large community).

Example, if you increased the movement speed of CS:GO characters, you would have to alter the designs; hence it is extremely difficult to become better at something which already has the 'perfect' design worked out. Time to reach A or B if T or CT, time to reach choke point, number of entrances and exits etc. That is just a few ground-in factors when designing. If it takes too long to travel to A if CT, but not T = map fail. Too short = flank and fail.

You are probably right, perhaps I am looking for a unicorn and perhaps I have answered my own question: there is no 'best game to map for'.

I'm not procrastinating btw, I am typing with UE4 running lighting builds/bakes in the background, and we all know how long it can take to calculate If I can be guilty of anything, it's being verbose and tangential, but that's just me and the type of personality I have: talk, talk, talk - gregarious as a Dolphin!

Back to work...

[Sprony]

I'm not a designer, but it's not very different with writing really. I've spend an insane amount of time on doing an in depth interview that nobody cared about but a short news post about a popular game I did was trending for days. That hurts, so I understand where you are coming from. But at the end of the day, it's not about the number of likes or how many people you reach, but that you made something you are proud of. Sure, validation is always nice, but it should never be the goal.

@FrieChamp said it best. You are looking for something that doesn't exist. I've done enough interviews to know that there isn't a single studio out there with a perfect pipeline. Game design is about doing the best with what you have and iterate on that. From what I'm told, it's a pain to make content for Destiny. Id-tech 6 requires a render farm thus slowing down some of the processes. The engine of Unreal Tournament keeps getting updated and breaking things. The list goes on. You have great games out there that failed to reach an audience and you have games that get such toxic feedback you are ashamed to be a part of the human race.

Find something you like. Something you believe in and make it. Forget demographics, audiences, current technology, feedback and what not. I know people who do amazing things with Quake and that's 20 years old. Stuff they enjoy doing more than their work in the industry. Let it all go and forget these endless discussions. Because after all is said and done, more is said than done  

Plus, if I was a recruiter, I would be more impressed with people who made awesome stuff with crappy tools than the other way around. 

[Mitch Mitchell]

4 hours ago, Sprony said:

I'm not a designer, but it's not very different with writing really. I've spend an insane amount of time on doing an in depth interview that nobody cared about but a short news post about a popular game I did was trending for days. That hurts, so I understand where you are coming from. But at the end of the day, it's not about the number of likes or how many people you reach, but that you made something you are proud of. Sure, validation is always nice, but it should never be the goal.

@FrieChamp said it best. You are looking for something that doesn't exist. I've done enough interviews to know that there isn't a single studio out there with a perfect pipeline. Game design is about doing the best with what you have and iterate on that. From what I'm told, it's a pain to make content for Destiny. Id-tech 6 requires a render farm thus slowing down some of the processes. The engine of Unreal Tournament keeps getting updated and breaking things. The list goes on. You have great games out there that failed to reach an audience and you have games that get such toxic feedback you are ashamed to be a part of the human race.

Find something you like. Something you believe in and make it. Forget demographics, audiences, current technology, feedback and what not. I know people who do amazing things with Quake and that's 20 years old. Stuff they enjoy doing more than their work in the industry. Let it all go and forget these endless discussions. Because after all is said and done, more is said than done  

Plus, if I was a computer, I would be more impressed with people who made awesome stuff with crappy tools than the other way around. 

The creative process and having self-respect is incredibly important, however; if you make something which no one uses (for a variety of reasons) then what is the point.

Maps need to be played and experienced, and if no one is playing a map - why? The obvious thing to look at is the design, but if no one gives you any feedback as to what can be tweaked (especially at the blocking stage) then you can spend an inordinate amount of time creating something which is ultimately pointless.

Feedback is key. A level designer does not and should not be the lynchpin for design, the community and the peers of the designer/mapper, are.

I would happily spend a working week being verbally beaten up about a design by my peers, if the net result is a better map.

Ego be damned!

I get your point about writing though, as I wrote a 20 page design document for the recent competition you held, and have yet to hear anything back about it As we speak I am penning a design outline for 4 maps, and am doing some lighting builds in the BG - no idea where it will go, but am not taking my foot off the gas and never will. I strive to be better!

Edited September 4, 2016 by Mitch Mitchell

[Thrik]

Some very good points made on this page about the value of feedback and the impact that it has on motivation/morale. However, I will counter with the point that if you truly enjoy a form of art — which many people would consider level design to be — then it's enjoyable for its own sake.

That is, a passionate painter doesn't really care if anybody looks at their work, they just love painting. A musician doesn't really care if anybody listens to their jams, they just love playing an instrument. You could lock a creative person in a room doing their passion for a year straight completely isolated from the outside world, and they'd still enjoy what they're doing.

The creative process itself is the goal, not having a finished map and being able to say 'I'm a mapper!'. I agree that feedback will definitely help you along, but you know what will help more than 50 pages of feedback? Simply making another map. And then another. And then another. And then another.

Because every single time you map, you're practicing — and that's what develops your skill. Going back to the music analogy, it doesn't really matter if someone playing the piano gets a mountain of feedback and notes from listeners and/or fellow musicians. Sure it might provide some pointers, but more than anything what will develop that pianist's skill is playing and playing and playing that piano for dozens, hundreds, thousands of hours.

In my experience this is what makes the difference between successful people in any creative industry (including my own, UI development) and those who fizzle out after a few knock-backs: having a true zest for the creative process itself, to the point where it doesn't even matter if you never finish anything or get any feedback on it.

Of course, getting stuff finished is a separate topic...

 

[Mitch Mitchell]

As much as I like your post, I must disagree with your overriding point which leads into your framework: Level design is not art, and so is removed from the creative process.

Line by line on your analogies-

Painting a painting is creative expression and by comparison, a drywall painter does not draw building blueprints, they paint walls, not create paintings.

A musician and any creative professional does and do care very passionately whether people experience something they create, as again, it is about expressing oneself regarding ideas or emotions instead of just saying or doing something. IF someone just wants to play an instrument, that is then a hobby for which they choose to enjoy alone for interest or learning a skill, typically because they are passionate about it. The issue with that analogy is that when your obsession becomes your profession, it is no longer your obsession.

The pianist, will certainly require mentoring and tutelage whilst they learn how to play, but writing and composing a new piece of music? Yeah, that requires feedback and again, is creative expression - yet there are only 12 notes on the chromatic scale...

Level design is part of interactive entertainment, and not having feedback and just chucking a map on the pile of maps which already exist in the hope that one day one of the maps may or may not be played is a highly questionable process for blocking out a level. I simply refuse the believe someone will hire someone to create maps for them, and never have the map tested, give it to an environment artist to not go over the lines. I really do not think it works like that. Figuratively speaking.

Surely, it is no different than UI?

OT, Level Design is not art, it is design and it must follow the rules of the game for which it is designed for, not the other way around - and the only way to get better at it is feedback. It doesn't matter how pretty I make something, if it doesn't follow the principles of the game for which it is designed for.

I also am a creative writer btw, and have finished everything I began writing - that, I do for pleasure.

[Thrik]

If you don't consider design a form of art or creative process then I think we just have diametrically opposed views on this. If it were merely a set of rules or a non-creative process then why not just get machines to automate the whole thing? (Actually someone on this forum has done just that, but I'm sure they'd freely admit that the procedural generation is obvious, and a human hand has still guided the way it generates.)

Even programming is often considered a creative process because you have to create solutions to problems by constructing something from nothing. There might be rules and conventions, but innovation and creativity are required. Also, is it the case that you only intend to create white boxes for levels or are you planning on making them aesthetically appealing too? Because you'll have difficulty getting your maps played or jobs if you can't produce sexy-looking material.

I've seen a lot of people flourish in terms of developing skills and careers in the 16 years I've been in this community, and the vast majority did so by simply pumping out map after map. Some maps received lots of feedback, some didn't. But they just kept on creating because they loved doing it for the sake of doing it. By doing this, with time you'll develop the skills and you'll get plenty of feedback on the way — especially once you start creating stuff that actually looks good, which is certainly as important as something that plays well if you want people to give it a go.

Want to know which game to make maps for? One that a lot of people are playing. Once your maps are good enough then people will notice them, play them, and provide feedback on them. You have an excellent community here for that too. If you're not hitting the threshold of quality then you'll just have to make do with what you can get and keep working on it. Feedback is of course important, but you also learn a lot from experimentation. If you can't trust your own judgment then you have a problem. 

Honestly, your last sentence makes me feel like perhaps you're barking up the wrong tree by implying that you wouldn't do level design for pleasure. If it's something you just see as a means to an end or 'a job', maybe you'd be much better off pursuing something you're legitimately passionate about. I'm a big believer in people basing their careers around what they love doing and those who don't usually end up being people I don't want to work with because of their lack of enthusiasm once the grind and frustration that inevitably occur with any job rear their heads. You'll never love your career if you don't love what you do and aren't happy to do it regardless. You know how many game developers deal with bad pay, bad conditions, and bad hours but do it anyway because they love it?

Honestly, just go make something. Virtually anything you do in terms of level design will put you in a better position than you are now, which seems to be no further along than you were three weeks ago, or in 2005. There's no perfect engine or perfect process for this. You just need to devote hours — and a lot of them — to learning this craft. Imagine where you'd be now if you'd persisted with building even one map a year since 2005. 11 maps! A whole portfolio.

Anyway, I'm probably devoting too many words to this seeing as I myself decided to give up level design because even though I love games I started finding the process more grating as detail and complexity moved beyond GoldSrc-era expectations and I was more passionate about another aspect of design. Gotta be honest with yourself right? I should let the real level designers share any more thoughts they may have. I wish you the best of luck.  

[spa]

While the whole "what is art" discussion is interesting it usually never resolves anything and is maybe getting off topic. However i do wanna say that if your not thinking about what the player should feel in the different parts of your map, your missing an entire aspect of mapping. Does the space make the player feel claustrophobic, stressed, safe, in danger, impressed, surprised, confused ? etc.

Ive currently begun on my first CS GO map despite having played the game way back before 1.6. All while mapping for various games, but side stepping CS GO until now. I think what motivates me to explore CS GO is a combination of the game being very big right now with lots of opportunity (sry i dont see that its impossible to break through but maybe im naive) and the fact that it reminds me of mapping back in the quake days with BSP brushes. There's something nice about that workflow and i feel i don't have to deliver something thats "the best looking thing ever" but if i manage to actually make something awesome thats an achievement in itself. If i went for Unreal it would have to be OMG-TRIPPLE-A all the way and i get enough of that try-harding at work.

What I do know from creating stuff in the digital space for 20 years, and made a career out of it, is that you can always find excuses for not doing something but what matters is doing, even if its not perfect. I think your overthinking it a bit to be honest. Map for several games! what about a starcraft/RTS map? make a small fallout 4 adventure, even snapmap for DooM because its fast and easy but you get to try out shit.

Most of all just do what excites you in the moment and not what you assume is most valuable for the future. Its the passion to see it through and the exploration of that idea that you just have to see played out that it is all about. Atleast thats my take on it.

[FrieChamp]

I have to agree with Mitch that design and art are different things that can be distinguished clearly and that receiving no feedback to a map you have created sucks. It doesn't only kill your motivation but also keeps you from learning what works and what doesn't. Even if you analyze succesful maps and follow all the known rules there will still be things that you havent thought of or dont work as well as expected. So I need to give you that, but I had the impression that you were setting the bar a little too high and all these requirements will stop you from ever designing anything. Glad to hear that you are producing!

[Mitch Mitchell]

I thought I'd wait for a night to come back to this, see if others wished to pitch in and then did.

Level design is just not art, it is blocking out spatial dimensions to fit a set of variables to make something work inside of its own rules.

Once you put a light somewhere, or paint a wall; then it becomes art - everything beforehand is in the hands of your peers.

It's the beforehand I'm talking about, because that is the most critical and important part of designing a level, and that is the thing sorely lacking for the reasons given. Either the game has nuanced gamers, or the gamers are too broad, yet too insular to gauge and quantify their requirements.

My mapping is going well, the project I am pitching for is tough, yet think there is great potential in what I am showing them.

[Thrik]

Well we clearly disagree but that's a tangent really so no need to dwell on it. Anyway, glad your mapping is coming along! Be sure to get a post in the 3D forum once you're ready to get some of that all-important feedback.

[FMPONE]

CS:GO, duh

but we will have a new mapping contest soon, for all Source engine fans, although not for CS this time.

[Vaya]

Dino D-day contest incoming