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Hi there Mapcore!

About me

To introduce myself; my name's Patrick, I'm 18 years old and I live in Stockholm, Sweden. I haven't really posted all that much here but I've always browsed the forums from time to time to check out all the nice stuff you guys churn out. Anyway, my mapping interest started at age 13-14, with Counter-strike (pretty classic beginning, ey?). I managed to make a few descent smaller maps and one slightly bigger (the latter I found floating around in the internet but cannot be run without "bright.wad"?). But then other things caught my attention and I didn't make any maps at all for quite some time.

Now it's been 4-5 years and I felt that it was time to end the mapping hiatus. Partly because it's just pure fun but I also have seen game development as a future career. And it was basically out of fear of becoming yet an untalented gamedev-aspiring slacker who regard themselves as the "guy who can come up with ideas". So I decided to start working again and chose to work with Team Fortress 2 since I really love that game and thus made

for it which ultimately didn't turn out so great. It looked good, played nice but I had no prior experience of optimizing maps and the results were accordingly. A hint brush was something vague and mystical, something from a magical land far away. I just wrapped it up and I feel that I learned a great deal while making it, even though I'm saddened by the fact that it isn't really playable/releasable. It can however be found here in it's latest shape. For my next project I've decided to make a L4D-campaign ( :D) since I yearn for more "realistic" mapping. In TF2, I could never create a small room with a door suitable for only one person, neither could I have "moody" lighting since visibility had higher priority and so on. Also, I want to introduce more custom content; both graphical and mechanical. I'll probably get back to you on this one!

Besides mapping in general, I like developing ideas, evaluating said ideas and toy around with theoretical game concepts. Creating worlds out of thin air is just... amazing and it's probably why I love games so much. I'm currently working on two game design docs, not for actual use anytime soon, but rather to practice at trying to come up with good core gameplay, interesting narrative and everything else related to a game. And who knows, in ten years the ideas might come in handy?

Questions

Now that you know a bit about me and what I've worked with so far, here comes the point of the thread. I have decided that I really want to aim at getting into the game industry. But to be honest, I don't know much about it or how it works. I've got the impression that it requires a great deal of talent to get into, gives relatively low pay and that the job market is risky and unsafe. Is this true or just bogus (and does it depend on where you're working)?

Then comes the choice of specialisation. What part to play in the game development process? Would I, as a level designer, be one of too many? My plan was to become a level designer who can handle the actual "construction" of a level but also make prop models and handle any scripting required for the level in question. This idea is founded on the assumption that game studios prefer a level designer who can work independently with everything related to the map he's making (another bonus I suppose is that you're versatile). Or perhaps the entire concept of a "level designer" is outdated? Maybe as games are getting bigger and more ambitious the work is getting split up more and more to specialists? I don't know, you guys better help me out!

Lastly. You can call me spoiled, naive or demanding but I really do not want to work with uninspired games for cellular phones, "license"-games and the likes (forever). Sure, I'm willing to wade through **** to be able to one day work with a passionate team that genuinely want to create grand experiences, tell of great tales and push the gaming industry forward (not game of the century, but good games). As long as that day comes at all! If I choose to pursue a career in the game industry, what is the validity of wanting to work uncompromisingly with great games and not end up "just" making stuff to meet a deadline? By uncompromisingly I don't mean that I'm the boss or anything, just that I'm part of a team who sets out to achieve greatness (I hope you understand what I mean).

I know that all of this is directly tied to my will, my talent and my passion. Just so you don't think I've missed that. :wink:

But I'm looking for answers about the difficulties in general.

Best Regards,

Patrick

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I have decided that I really want to aim at getting into the game industry. But to be honest, I don't know much about it or how it works.

so you make decisions without having thought it through? tough guy! you are still young and you shouldn't be to focused on this one perspective. try things out! this means: for example do an internship in a games company near you. after that you made your own experiences and you can be more sure of what you think you want to do.

a personal advice and many people would share this one with me (friechamp?) is: get at least a bachelor of art/science degree and then start working full time. having been to a university teaches you many different skills (not only those that are part of the topic of your studies). additionally you can evolve in different directions and get a broader view on things. possible employers see that you have accomplished something, that sure wasn't easy to get. saying "i made a mod" is completely different to saying "i finished my bachelor degree in time and with good results".

after having finished a university level you will be in your mid 20s and be way more grown up. as i can speak for my self: "getting into the game industry" isn't hard at all. take your time. make up a good portfolio. the rest will be sending emails and doing some interviews.

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Get: The Hows and Whys of The Games Industry by Sjoerd de Jong (Hourences), apply for an internship at all random studios in Stockholm (there are quite a few), you don't have to bad chances, with a nice map in the portfolio. Learn modelling and texturing (or at least basic knowledge in 3Ds Max and Photoshop). You can also pick up the course of studies Nurb (?) and the guys from Decadence-Mod were/are in ( http://dsu.iki.his.se/web/ ).

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i think you have your heart in the right place and you will do just fine !

cant say if going to a university and getting a degree will help you get the foot in the door i don't have a degree and the people aroudn me in my field that do can not do MORE than me or are more SKILLED than me so what ever a university teaches you might not directly effect your level-design work but MIGHT impress an employer i don't know. i guess for programmers on the other hand a degree is definitely a seal of quality and a definite requirement ! however going to a university will surely be a great social experience for you ... something that i unfortunately missed out on.

there is many struggling start up companys that are only capable of existing because they toss intern on the fire id say stay away frm those people.

id rather try to pull of an independent game all on your own. or with 1 or 2 like minded people.

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I have decided that I really want to aim at getting into the game industry. But to be honest, I don't know much about it or how it works.

a personal advice and many people would share this one with me (friechamp?) is: get at least a bachelor of art/science degree and then start working full time. having been to a university teaches you many different skills (not only those that are part of the topic of your studies). additionally you can evolve in different directions and get a broader view on things. possible employers see that you have accomplished something, that sure wasn't easy to get. saying "i made a mod" is completely different to saying "i finished my bachelor degree in time and with good results".

I've come to learn that "what is the best way for me to break into the industry?" and "what is the best for me?" are two entirely different questions. If you look for answers to the former, there are plenty of threads covering the subject and many people here are willing to help, but the later is a question that you will have to answer yourself (just don't forget about it) :)

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Warby and Hessi shows the two sides of this argument, and quite possibly the crossroads which you are standing before you now.

Option A, Spend 3 years on an education and create your safety net. (In 10 years, can you honestly say you want to make games?)

Option B, Spend all your free time, even more than you would spend at a school or getting a university degree, to get the skills you need to get a secure job at a games company. (Assuming you are not aspiring to become a prop modeler for life). Now you might think that sounds negative, but its not, because you probably love what your doing so spending a lot of time on it wont be that bad :)

Me and Hessi both chose Option A, Friechamp initally chose Option B but then changed his mind after a year or so (I think?) and went back to option A. While Warby got a point that his work is in no way inferior to the ones with education, then I believe that this mindset is shortsighted and that it will backfire heavily if you ever grow tired of your current situation and want to move onto something else.

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Your levels look real good! Whats the big deal just apply for some good game developers already ;)

I joined a professional studio at the age of 19! on a AAA title :P

As for the divide between art and level design ... do you prefer making a level look pretty or play well? do you prefer multiplayer or single player? do you like writing level design documents? do you only want to work on shooters or do you have a wide area of knowledge?

Anyway you appear to have a good head and heart like warby said so you will be just fine :)

Oh and SOOOOOOO many developers came from a background like yours so they can relate to it, but take any job your offered at the start. Getting in can be tricky but once your there you can start to be picky.

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Friechamp initally chose Option B but then changed his mind after a year or so (I think?) and went back to option A.

Make that 3 years. No regrets though, I had a blast and that experience is still helping me today (see internship at Nintendo), point is that I'm studying now. Wrapping up a 40 pages paper on Nintendo and its competitors for uni tomorrow by the way. That means I won't be sober for the next 2 weeks :celebrate:

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Thanks for all the great replies, all of you!

Hessi (in reply to quote): That was badly put by me. What I really mean is that I am seriously considering a game design career.

Also you mentioned that "getting into the game industry" isn't hard at all" which is more then I knew. It's mostly that I'm unaware of the ratio of available positions:available artists (which is pretty important). Thanks for your reply.

Skjalg pretty clearly shows the different paths. It's a question of gaining a broader knowledge that is clearly printed on paper or to specialize and have your knowledge shine through your work.

Anyway, in consideration to all your replies I've come up with a... strategy, if you will. I'll finish "gymnasiet" (high school) this spring and after that I will either spend six months or a full year honing my level design skills. My portfolio will grow and I will attempt to apply for a job. If I'm unsuccessful I will go on to higher studies in the spring or fall next year. If I get a job I will miss out on my education obviously but as luck would have it I live in Sweden which means I can pick it up anytime in the future. Yay or nay?

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Yeah have a look at my book: http://hourences.com/book/book2about.htm

It talks through the pros and cons of this industry, ways to get in, schools, mods, etc. All kinds of information and advice basically that will help you make a decision and get a better view on how this industry.

I am not Swedish but I do live here. I have also been teaching occasionally in The Garden, level design education, and Future Games, game design in general. I think there are roughly 20 people a year who would like to become a level designer in Sweden, and there are absolutely not 20 positions available a year in Sweden. So is it difficult to get in? Yeah it kind of is but you also just have to be lucky, and good. I think it is about 50 percent luck (right guy, right time, right place), and 50 percent skill. Work really hard and stick to it. It took me 2-3 years of making custom levels before I got a job. I already made about 15-20 entire levels when I was hired. To go to school or not is a difficult question. It probably is a good idea to go to one though. Just as a backup. You can always apply to studios while you are in school. If you do happen to get hired, hey all the better and you can just quit school. If you don't, you still got your education.

The Garden will stop next year I believe, but Future Games continues. You should have a look at it, may be interesting. You should also be aware that all those people currently attending those courses will also soon look for a job or an internship. They will take whatever positions there are available.

Is it low pay and unstable? Yeah it could be, but you also have studios that are stable and pay decently. It depends where you end up. If you end up at a small start up studio you are much more likely to end up with unpleasant situations. On the other hand do not underestimate small companies and teams. They will give you a lot more creative freedom usually which is also worth something. You could go work for Dice for example, but if you're just a robot in between 300 other developers it's not very fun really, even if they do pay nicely and even if the job is stable (kind of).

I think you should continue with everything you're doing. Try to do as much as possible, and get into as much as possible. Have a go at Scripting in source, but also at scripting with for example Lua and Kismet. Learn basic 3D modeling. Learn some basic level Photoshop. Learn something other than Source. Do singleplay and multiplay. And just make damn good levels.

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To go to school or not is a difficult question. It probably is a good idea to go to one though. Just as a backup. You can always apply to studios while you are in school. If you do happen to get hired, hey all the better and you can just quit school. If you don't, you still got your education.

That's exactly what I did and I can only recommend it. I still want to resume my education one day though.

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I haven't a ton to add, these guys have it covered pretty well. All I can say is keep making things. Make maps. Learn a modeling package. And if you have already, crack open another and figure that out too. Just keep doing stuff, don't lax in producing things even if they're shit and don't work out in the end, you'll always have a better overall understanding of the work regardless if it's successful or not.

It's easy to get frustrated doing this stuff (for me anyway). I have far more failed projects and piles of shit than proper, finished work. But if you find yourself constantly gravitating back to it, it's probably a good sign.

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You can try to study one of the game related courses at Skövde University. A couple guys from my company went there and some mapcore members.

It's true that a lot of people want to become level designers and only a part of them ultimately get a job. But this shouldnt demotivate you. You have great control over your own chances. Just work really hard on your portfolio. If you study in that direction dont only do course stuff but also spent your freetime on additional stuff like custom maps or mods. This extra work and the experience that you get from it makes the difference between you and the other students who rather like to party. Also learn how to do singleplayer maps. mp maps are nice and can give you an job but if you have some nice sp maps/mods in your portfolio your chances will be even bigger.

You canalso try to do an internship. The dense of studios in and around stockholm is quite good.

Payment is not horrible for swedish standarts. Its somewhere in the middle or slightly above what people earn in this country in average. Of course you will not get rich as a level designer.

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I would personally do a degree if you can. Why? Because I had loads of free time at university. I used the time to learn more level design, modelling, scripting and some texturing in addition to graduating my programming course. I wasn't amazing at any particular thing (I learned to do these things because they interested me!) but the point is that I had the time to do it all, plus I have a degree to fall back on. If you do a games-related degree, tread very carefully, though. Make sure the course is reputable and has a high number of graduates that enter the industry.

Given enough time and dedication, anyone with talent can become good enough to secure a job in my opinion. Just do what Erratic, Hourences & co. advised -- make stuff. Make lots of stuff. It doesn't matter if you throw some of it away or you don't finish everything or it's not a success, just make it, then make even more. Jeff Atwood wrote a particularly good article about why quantity is so important. IMO it applies to near enough every field.

Also, it's worth looking into modding. You learn a lot about collaborating with others, it may offer some external pressure to commit and you will also make some good contacts for the future :)

Good luck!

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