What I'm Working On

[FMPONE]

Today I will release probably the final major update to Santorini. As the map has come quite a long way since release, I decided to put together a comparison of what Santorini's layout used to look like vs. what it currently looks like:

You may ask, why all the cuts? The answer to that is really simple: what players were able to absorb in greybox testing and what players were able to absorb after final art, ended up being two totally different things.

Back in November 2013, greyboxing testing began on Santorini. We developed a fun and dynamic greybox that seemed pretty ironclad. We were half-right. 

In a way, Santorini has truly humbled me as to the importance of greyboxing. Yes, obviously this is a critical stage in map development. Because Santorini was extensively playtested in greybox stage, we had a map with fundamentally good flow. However, because we overshot the complexity of our greybox (by quite a bit), it was later necessary to recreate our flow and what made the level fun and functional, on an almost totally different scale. In many ways this felt like making a second level, with all of the art and design challenges of a second level piled on top of an old one. Thankfully, I think we've got something with really solid negative space (most well-known Counter-Strike maps have large areas of negative space and limited numbers of negative space territory -- Santorini clocks in at about 12 areas of negative space, Cache has 10, Mirage has about 16, Dust2 has 5 [might this help to explain some of the map's enormous popularity...??] etc.).

One of the really cool things about this process has been preserving the areas that work best artistically and gameplay wise, but having the freedom to ask "should we cut this?" I think all of the possible cuts have been made, and the map now has a pretty sensible competitive layout that will be (and this is important) easy for players to learn and navigate, with the flow and timings that made the map fun in the first place. I'd say I'm pretty proud of the improvements to this map, and the lessons from this process will stick with me for a long time.

[will2k]

@FMPONE that's a MAJOR layout change especially around A, B and CT spawn. I liked the connectors in the previous versions (even before the first layout shown here - circa october 2015) but I guess all the "confused" players nagging about the layout took its toll at the end

Best of luck with the new version, great map.

PS: for the dates on the screenshots, don't you mean Jan 2016 and Nov 2015 instead of Jan 2015 and Nov 2014?

[Vaya]

'Before' doesn't include those nasty windows onto B that I'm glad you ended up removing ...

I agree about the negative space aspect too. A lot of the maps we see on mapcore playtests don't have enough of it. It seems to be a common mistake to think that a map needs have as much of the internal space to be filled with function as possible- not giving the layout + areas enough room to breath As you've increased the negative space by removing redundant or over designed paths the gameplay as improved substantially. Hoping that it gets into the next operation- I would say It's heading towards proper competitive viability.

While I've not played the newest build (I don't think ESEA is running it yet) but one thing critical I'd say is that you could do something more unique with the theming of the CT side corridors. What do you have - a construction area (this is like a map trope now) and some decaying corridors. you could have this a little more open and feel like a back alley- something common in greece but I think your map is missing.

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-corridor-with-arches-and-cobbled-pavement-outside-a-church-in-fira-84823516.html

http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-81588106/stock-photo-ceramic-checkered-flooring-and-pretty-arches-outside-church-on-santorini-greece.html

sorry for the stock photos but you'll probably get what I'm meaning

[FMPONE]

@FMPONE that's a MAJOR layout change especially around A, B and CT spawn. I liked the connectors in the previous versions (even before the first layout shown here - circa october 2015) but I guess all the "confused" players nagging about the layout took its toll at the end

Best of luck with the new version, great map.

PS: for the dates on the screenshots, don't you mean Jan 2016 and Nov 2015 instead of Jan 2015 and Nov 2014?

Thank you! 

As for that feedback, I don't really care so much about what people say, as much as what people do -- ingame when I play with them or in demos that I watch. I will say that if people give specific feedback that always helps, and what I hear in-game matters a lot. Watching people play demos of Santorini, it was obvious the map had to be made easier to navigate for players and the map has certainly come a long way in that regard.

 

'Before' doesn't include those nasty windows onto B that I'm glad you ended up removing ...

I agree about the negative space aspect too. A lot of the maps we see on mapcore playtests don't have enough of it. It seems to be a common mistake to think that a map needs have as much of the internal space to be filled with function as possible- not giving the layout + areas enough room to breath As you've increased the negative space by removing redundant or over designed paths the gameplay as improved substantially. Hoping that it gets into the next operation- I would say It's heading towards proper competitive viability.

While I've not played the newest build (I don't think ESEA is running it yet) but one thing critical I'd say is that you could do something more unique with the theming of the CT side corridors. What do you have - a construction area (this is like a map trope now) and some decaying corridors. you could have this a little more open and feel like a back alley- something common in greece but I think your map is missing.

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-corridor-with-arches-and-cobbled-pavement-outside-a-church-in-fira-84823516.html

http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-81588106/stock-photo-ceramic-checkered-flooring-and-pretty-arches-outside-church-on-santorini-greece.html

sorry for the stock photos but you'll probably get what I'm meaning

I don't have that radar anymore, it was an early cut

I agree, the most egregious construction area has been removed (rightly). Now that the map is literally out of construction, it'll be tapered back as a thematic element.

[cashed]

Nice reductions! I noticed you increased some path widths CT to B, but i feel it needs the same treatment heading towards A from CT (with the removal squeaky hall).

[RivFader]

But this still doesn't fix the most important problem with the Santorini right now: The lack of the N€IN graffiti

 

Speaking of the underground double path to B, though: you removed the hole to throw grenades into pretty fast and it stayed that way. How do you think the functionality of this double udnerground pathway developed as you improved the map?

Edited January 26, 2016 by RivFader
Grammar

[FMPONE]

Speaking of the underground double path to B, though: you removed the hole to throw grenades into pretty fast and it stayed that way. How do you think the functionality of this double udnerground pathway developed as you improved the map?

I wouldn't have minded keeping those little holes because they were pretty neat, but simple things like that destroy FPS because it's a portal into mid. Gameplay wise they would have been a cool gimmick because the worst thing that can happen is a nade goes up or down through them or if players are really feeling brave, somehow toss the bomb up/through them. It's the kind of feature you have to literally build your map around, though, and in the end they didn't present anywhere near enough value for the insane FPS cost/hassle of implementing to be worthwhile.

[Promulle]

I'm curious how those changes affect gameplay. I have only played one of the very first versions of the workshop full release.

Nice to see, how much effort you put towards improving an already pretty good map.  

[laminutederire]

@FMPONE and @vaya  what do you guys mean by negative space? I'm not sure to understand what your thoughts about that notion are :/

[Tomato]

@FMPONE and @vaya  what do you guys mean by negative space? I'm not sure to understand what your thoughts about that notion are :/

I guess it's "the space that's not being there". Or in more simple terms, the areas you can't acces in the map.
The positive space is the part of the map you can walk and maneuver, where you actually play. The negative space is the part where you can't play.
So these are the parts inbetween the pathways (the black holes in a map overview)

I feel this space is quite important cause it creates rotation times etc, also the amount of negative vs positive space makes up for complexity of the map.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

[Bodd Jonar]

I feel this space is quite important cause it creates rotation times etc, also the amount of negative vs positive space makes up for complexity of the map.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

In my opinion space like that is the reason to why CS maps are so linear and full och corridors. Maps are mostly a theme and then a random set of corridors. Early cod games handled maps much better, with little to no "negative space". Look at maps like Crash, strike, terminal, highrise, backlot etc, all amazing competitive maps. I think mappers spend too little time on layout, mostly they spend the first few hours, weeks on it, and then months on the theme. 

 

@fmpone: What is the name of the brick textures used in the map? Like this one http://puu.sh/l8qP4/fb7a98d77d.jpg to the right. Customs I guess since I have never seen it in another map. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by Bodd Jonar

[blackdog]

In my opinion space like that is the reason to why CS maps are so linear and full och corridors. Maps are mostly a theme and then a random set of corridors. Early cod games handled maps much better, with little to no "negative space". Look at maps like Crash, strike, terminal, highrise, backlot etc, all amazing competitive maps. I think mappers spend too little time on layout, mostly they spend the first few hours, weeks on it, and then months on the theme. 

 

@fmpone: What is the name of the brick textures used in the map? Like this one http://puu.sh/l8qP4/fb7a98d77d.jpg to the right. Customs I guess since I have never seen it in another map. 

yeah but remember that Source is very clunky, so that was a technical restriction originally, and CS gameplay is not a straightforward TDM that needs super-connected maps, null rotations (because you want to be firing 5 secs after spawning) etc. Also in the past mappers, wanted to control the use of grenades, and/or player weren't bothered by the invisible walls so there wasn't the need of openess as much as now.
Not sure the experience is very comparable. That being said, some principles should/could be taken into account and attempt made at achieving the feeling.

Edited January 26, 2016 by blackdog

[Tomato]

yeah but remember that Source is very clunky, so that was a technical restriction originally, and CS gameplay is not a straightforward TDM that needs super-connected maps, null rotations (because you want to be firing 5 secs after spawning) etc. Not sure the experience is very comparable.

In my personal opinion CS is like a chessplay.
From the start you move your pawns to certain positions (chokepoints) and then the play unravels bit by bit.
Whenever a someone gets picked a piece is slain and an opening is made in the opponents defence/offence.
Therefore the team has to reconsider its approach and maybe reposition.
I feel the corridor layout suits this playstyle well.

[Fnugz]

Just a heads up, you might already be aware of this.

The bombsites are switched on the radar and you can not plant on A at all and you can only plant on 3/4 of B.

[_Rf_]

4 hours ago, Vaya said:

'Before' doesn't include those nasty windows onto B that I'm glad you ended up removing ...

 

I don't have that radar anymore, it was an early cut

I gotchu fam

Edited January 26, 2016 by _Rf_