wip [CS:GO] Incursion (formerly 'de_docks')

[MinorThreat]

I was wondering if anyone had any feedback on the map following the playtest we've just had? I know that there was lots of comments about lines of sight and hiding spots, and obviously there were areas that need to be clipped, but I was wondering whether people enjoyed playing it overall, and whether the general layout was good. It appeared to be a heavily CT-sided affair for the first half, but it seemed to be a lot more even in the second. I don't know whether that's due to people getting to learn the map or the terrorist side in the second half managing to overcome the bias of the map.

[Vorontsov]

1) Clip shit, I found several places after the playtest ended that you could jump out of without even trying hard.

2) Why is there a green tint to the map? Which was only enhanched by my digital vibrance settings.

3) I forgot which site is which but I think B-Site is the one where you do long range engages. I think it's not as good of a site as A, if you get an awp and maybe a scar then it's not that hard to lock the site down. Weird corners that are mandatory to check while being too exposed to other locations.

4) I remember some time I had no idea where the hell I got shot from, and apparently there is a stair where you can only see the head, and it didn't help that the place was pretty dark, don't know what the location is called, I wasn't a big fan of it.

5) I got the impression that CT's can outmanuever T's pretty easy, it wasn't hard to flank and likewise it wasn't hard to easily get flanked and having no idea what the hell just happend.

6) I found that the chokepoints were weird, but maybe that's just me.

7) This is for your 3D Model(s). That train of yours looks great, very high in polygons which I think is not the end of the world but in that case you should be able to see it, you only see a part of it through the fence and don't get up close and personal with it ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°). I also think the small rectangular segments in the toll model could be done with a texture, the polys are unecessary and bad optimization

These are just my personal opinions off the top of my head, I might update this comment if I can think of something else.

 

Edited January 31, 2016 by Vorontsov

[jackophant]

@MinorThreat if you can post your overview I'll happily annotate it and write up some feedback

[MinorThreat]

@MinorThreat if you can post your overview I'll happily annotate it and write up some feedback

Here is the overview:

1) Clip shit, I found several places after the playtest ended that you could jump out of without even trying hard.

2) Why is there a green tint to the map? Which was only enhanched by my digital vibrance settings.

3) I forgot which site is which but I think B-Site is the one where you do long range engages. I think it's not as good of a site as A, if you get an awp and maybe a scar then it's not that hard to lock the site down. Weird corners that are mandatory to check while being too exposed to other locations.

4) I remember some time I had no idea where the hell I got shot from, and apparently there is a stair where you can only see the head, and it didn't help that the place was pretty dark, don't know what the location is called, I wasn't a big fan of it.

5) I got the impression that CT's can outmanuever T's pretty easy, it wasn't hard to flank and likewise it wasn't hard to easily get flanked and having no idea what the hell just happend.

6) I found that the chokepoints were weird, but maybe that's just me.

7) This is for your 3D Model(s). That train of yours looks great, very high in polygons which I think is not the end of the world but in that case you should be able to see it, you only see a part of it through the fence and don't get up close and personal with it ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°). I also think the small rectangular segments in the toll model could be done with a texture, the polys are unecessary and bad optimization

These are just my personal opinions off the top of my head, I might update this comment if I can think of something else.

 

There's a green tint to the map because I changed the environment light settings but didn't change it back. I didn't think it would be important because I'm just looking to get the layout right at the moment. What are the weird corners that you are talking about at B? Could you point out the areas where you think that the CTs could outmanoeuvre the Ts? I was planning on moving the train model to a place where it would be more visible, but it's not top on my list of priorities at the moment. I was also planning on replacing that part of the barrier with a texture like you suggested, but I'm just looking to get the layout right for now!

[jackophant]

Here you go @MinorThreat, I reckon the changes I've drawn out here are fairly concise, but one thing I can't effectively show is the number of 64 unit boxes. Please do not use these, ever. They are awful and massively unfair. You can use them for self boost jumps, just out of the way of anywhere someone can easily abuse them for super effective cover.

Green areas are somewhere you should add:

• The green boxes in mid are your shelving. It absorbs SO MUCH damage, and make firefights very irregular, box them out in dev, or stack them full of crates, either way, make it more solid so people can play around it more.
• I've blocked the door to the right of the window from the B path as it made going mid pointless. CS isn't fun when you keep getting shot in the side of the head because you have too many places to watch. It also concentrates the flow of players better and give more of a reason to hold window to keep people off mid.

Red areas are something you should remove:

• That underground path offers nothing tactically. You go towards A, get smoked off at the tightest choke point in the world and then just run past mid, past the defensive window, past every CT in the map, and just pop behind them in window. It honestly breaks the map the most for me because right now mid window CT has to watch front right and left by himself.

The blue lines are all pretty ridiculous sight lines:

• The one outside B, CTs can get to those boxes and start auto-sniping Ts before they're even down the stairs. It is a horrible engagement, not only is the CT very hard to spot against the shady corner, but anything other than a scoped weapon is pretty useless, especially because they'll be hiding behind a 64 unit box.
• The long sight line from A across mid is again, aided by 64 unit boxes. The person sitting near A can very easily spot Ts running up mid and pick their heads off from complete safety.
• The short light running north to south in the tunnels outside A is another 64 unit pillbox. CTs just sit there gunning Ts down in a tight corridor with 99% of their body hidden, even more effective when smokes are present.
• The shorter blue light across the A tunnels / mid connector isn't a massive issue in itself, but the back drop is very dark on the left end of it making it hard to see. I like what you've tried with the plastic drapes, but they also impinge visibility, so maybe if you can slide them sideways to minimise their impact, that could be enough.

The yellow line just highlights a very fast rotate:

• CTs can play pretty aggressively on this map, even on mid, so to then have a fast rotate is pretty brutal.

Sidenotes:

• 64 unit boxes are bad mmkay?
• Squeaky doors should ideally only be used once in a map to stop repetition and maintain area identity
• 64 unit boxes are really like... really bad
  • try something like 52 units
  • mix up between hard and soft cover (how much damage gets through cover)
    • hard = low penetration damage
    • soft = higher penetration damage
• Long B corridor of death needs to be staggered a bit
  • maybe push it closer to Ts and further away from CT spawn
• Lighting is generally too dark, I know you said you were more concerned about game play, but you need to be concerned because bad lighting creates bad game play.
• pls no 64 unit boxes.

[MinorThreat]

Here you go @MinorThreat, I reckon the changes I've drawn out here are fairly concise, but one thing I can't effectively show is the number of 64 unit boxes. Please do not use these, ever. They are awful and massively unfair. You can use them for self boost jumps, just out of the way of anywhere someone can easily abuse them for super effective cover.

Green areas are somewhere you should add:

• The green boxes in mid are your shelving. It absorbs SO MUCH damage, and make firefights very irregular, box them out in dev, or stack them full of crates, either way, make it more solid so people can play around it more.
• I've blocked the door to the right of the window from the B path as it made going mid pointless. CS isn't fun when you keep getting shot in the side of the head because you have too many places to watch. It also concentrates the flow of players better and give more of a reason to hold window to keep people off mid.

Red areas are something you should remove:

• That underground path offers nothing tactically. You go towards A, get smoked off at the tightest choke point in the world and then just run past mid, past the defensive window, past every CT in the map, and just pop behind them in window. It honestly breaks the map the most for me because right now mid window CT has to watch front right and left by himself.

The blue lines are all pretty ridiculous sight lines:

• The one outside B, CTs can get to those boxes and start auto-sniping Ts before they're even down the stairs. It is a horrible engagement, not only is the CT very hard to spot against the shady corner, but anything other than a scoped weapon is pretty useless, especially because they'll be hiding behind a 64 unit box.
• The long sight line from A across mid is again, aided by 64 unit boxes. The person sitting near A can very easily spot Ts running up mid and pick their heads off from complete safety.
• The short light running north to south in the tunnels outside A is another 64 unit pillbox. CTs just sit there gunning Ts down in a tight corridor with 99% of their body hidden, even more effective when smokes are present.
• The shorter blue light across the A tunnels / mid connector isn't a massive issue in itself, but the back drop is very dark on the left end of it making it hard to see. I like what you've tried with the plastic drapes, but they also impinge visibility, so maybe if you can slide them sideways to minimise their impact, that could be enough.

The yellow line just highlights a very fast rotate:

• CTs can play pretty aggressively on this map, even on mid, so to then have a fast rotate is pretty brutal.

Sidenotes:

• 64 unit boxes are bad mmkay?
• Squeaky doors should ideally only be used once in a map to stop repetition and maintain area identity
• 64 unit boxes are really like... really bad
  • try something like 52 units
  • mix up between hard and soft cover (how much damage gets through cover)
    • hard = low penetration damage
    • soft = higher penetration damage
• Long B corridor of death needs to be staggered a bit
  • maybe push it closer to Ts and further away from CT spawn
• Lighting is generally too dark, I know you said you were more concerned about game play, but you need to be concerned because bad lighting creates bad game play.
• pls no 64 unit boxes.

Thanks for your feedback and advice. I had thought about having the red tunnel come out at the side building just south of the doorway that you've marked in green. That would provide an extra route but the Ts would emerge at an existing choke point (by the squeaky door at the B side building), rather than giving the CTs in the window room too much to think about. Somehow I think that the side route to A is a bit restricted without the extra path, even if it is a minor connecting path that wouldn't offer any sort of strategic advantage. I'm not sure what I can do about the short rotation time highlighted in yellow, except for to block off the door at B altogether, but that would mean that all but one of the routes would lead to A. I'm not sure how I would move the long B corridor closer to Ts and further from CT as it is comprised of the side building and anything I do to that is going to have a knock-on effect on other aspects of the map (such as the timing from T spawn to the squeaky door, which is already a bit short for my liking. That's been one of the difficulties I've had with this map- the way I designed it means that lots of areas are hard to alter without having an affect on other things.

[jackophant]

@MinorThreat try not to let how the map looks get in the way of how it plays.

Function first, form later. Dust2 wasn't ubiquitous because it looks nice.

This is also a very classic example as to why you don't detail too early.

Edited February 2, 2016 by jackophant

[MinorThreat]

Just had a playtest of the changes I made. Last time it was CT-sided and now it's T-sided- can't really put my finger on why that is! If anyone would like to leave any feedback it would be appreciated!

Here's the layout for you, @jackophant:

 

 

[Freaky_Banana]

For me it looks like mid was overpowered (but I have to admit I never even started up this map, so this is judging just by the overview ! ). As soon as Ts have broken through the initial mid defense, they can go onto any of thw two sites and control the rotation paths (which seem rather narrow btw). Its just that they will always be able to outnumber the CTs on the site they want to take after they took mid. At least that's what it looks like for me. I hope I made no wrong assumptions and that this helps  !

Cheers!

[MinorThreat]

4 hours ago, Freaky_Banana said:

For me it looks like mid was overpowered (but I have to admit I never even started up this map, so this is judging just by the overview ! ). As soon as Ts have broken through the initial mid defense, they can go onto any of thw two sites and control the rotation paths (which seem rather narrow btw). Its just that they will always be able to outnumber the CTs on the site they want to take after they took mid. At least that's what it looks like for me. I hope I made no wrong assumptions and that this helps  !

Cheers!

Yeah I need to do something about the connecting paths, I'll probably try blocking part of it off so there is no longer a route to A (worth trying at least). No one seemed to go mid during the playtest, I'd hoped it would be the hardest to get through for Ts and bear the greatest reward. I also wanted it to be the main area of focus for the map. Didn't really play out that way.

Edited June 6, 2016 by MinorThreat

[jackophant]

Mid was pretty awful to play as CT. It was so strong for T that it was just easier to separate team and play each site.

I'll give you my scribbles soon. Take them or leave them, but I'll give a summary explanation as well based on what I noticed.

One thing that doesn't need annotation is the issue of boxes not being flush with walls. Whoever is behind the can be seen from distance but they can't see anything.

Also, please see above ^^^ some of my previous feedback still stands.

Edited June 7, 2016 by jackophant

[Logic]

The underground area feels like a really forced idea. There are plenty of routes for the T's already and since the playtest was quite T-sided it might be a good idea to remove it. Connecting the far left to the far right like that just doesn't seem to be a good idea to me :/

[MinorThreat]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

The underground area feels like a really forced idea. There are plenty of routes for the T's already and since the playtest was quite T-sided it might be a good idea to remove it. Connecting the far left to the far right like that just doesn't seem to be a good idea to me :/

Yeah, I'm gonna get rid of it. Tried a few ways to make it work but probably be best without it.

[MinorThreat]

Hello all,

I've made some recent changes to my map in order to address some issues raised during the last playtest. I'm starting to think that level design really isn't my forte, but at the same time I don't want all the effort I've already put into it go to waste. If you are already familiar with my map from previous playtest I would appreciate your thoughts on the changes I've made.

These are the steps at mid. I've blocked off the entrance to the left of the window and made the window larger and easier to jump through.

Steps at mid.

Steps at mid.

Entrance to side building at B long.

The lower floor of the side building. I've done away with the steps up to the window room in favour of a ladder. I decided to do this because I felt that it was too easy for the Ts to take the window room and too hard for the CTs to defend mid from the window. The doorway on the left leads to the mid steps, and the far doorway leads to the tunnel. A few people on previous playtests have said that they thought that the tunnel was redundant, and should be removed entirely. I figured that if there was a route into mid via the stairs, there may be more point to it. This will probably be the last time I try and make it work before it goes.

The upper floor of the side building and the top of the ladder. I've closed off the unwanted space on the upper floor. It may not be apparent from this screenshot, but the entrance to the window room is now more of a doorway than a big opening. This will hopefully mean that Ts rushing through mid and past the window will find the window room easier to check and are less likely to be shot in the back on the way to A.

The tunnel entrance at A side. I've added a window so that the people can cover the corridor leading out to the side yard.

The view from the window at A side.

The steps down to the tunnel at A side.

I haven't made any changes to this area. The reason that I included it is that I was considering blocking this entrance off, and was wondering what people's thoughts on this idea were?

These last screenshots are of the long route to B. There was a lot of criticism of this area in the last playtest. I've been thinking of ways to improve it, with ideas ranging from a radical redesign to simply adding and rearranging some cover. If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions I would be very grateful, I'm not really sure what to do with it to be honest.

 

I would like to playtest this map again soon, so I thought it would be a good idea to make sure that there isn't anything obviously wrong with the layout before I submit it. 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2016 by MinorThreat

[MinorThreat]

Hello,

I've recently tried my hand at sorting out some of the issues that this map suffers from, as were mentioned in previous playtests that happened a while ago. I was toying with the idea of changing B, as the bombsites seemed too close together for my liking. I have moved it to be beside a building which I have extended in order to space the map apart. I have also changed the layout of some of the existing routes. I was hoping to playtest this map again soon, but I thought it would be best to get some feedback first before I submit it. I would appreciate any thoughts!

Here's the Workshop link if you'd like to have a run around. I had problems packing the .nav file, but it only takes a minute or to to build (on my PC anyway!):

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=839086804

 

...And here's some slightly underwhelming screenshots of the changes I've made on the B side of the map, along with the overview of the revised layout:

 

Edited January 10, 2017 by MinorThreat