NDAs...

[submdl]

I realize I’ve only just registered, but I’ve been lurking these message boards for approximately 6 months, give or take. Now, I want to bring a topic up which seems to take place quite a bit in the mIRC channel (or so I have noticed). The influx of modifications resulting to an NDA is simply astonishing. Is the world really coming to a state where absolutely no one can be trusted?

First of all, a modification is just that: a modification of a game, with intent (usually) to distribute freely. So I asked myself, why are groups of people that are bent on creating a free product becoming so tyrannical with their property? Is it because they fear people stealing their work, or for them to become the egotistical sons of bitches they truly are, and so they can place the fear factor? Too many modifications are becoming “professional”, in hopes they will get noticed by development companies. Well, I’ve got news for them, Cliffe and Gooseman didn’t get noticed by Valve because they acted professional (quite the opposite actually), but because they created a masterpiece that millions of people have downloaded, and hundreds of thousands are still playing 6 years later.

People are so paranoid that someone is going to steal their work, that they have to put stupid shit in place to protect their IP. There isn’t even a use for a damn NDA with a free product. Say if someone does actually join a team, sign an NDA, and claims work as his own and leak material to the public, which of the team members is going to waste a year of their life and thousands of dollars on a petty transgression, and the only fault caused was making the evil-doer look like an asshole?

Not only that, but if you are going to create an NDA, know how a fucking NDA works! I recently applied to a modification, unmistakably stated that I was 16, yet they send me an NDA to sign. Ok, well, an NDA isn’t legally binding (null and void) when signed by a minor (18 and under) in the United States, so it’s pretty damn useless. I realize I am quite redundant, but redundancy seems to be the only way to get my point across.

And to simply put it, an NDA for a non-commercial project is total bullshit.

[von*ferret]

nice rant. We hate "proffesional" acting mods.

[Mojo]

hahaha @ the mod making you sign an NDA. I can understand Teams wanting to protect their ideas in the diesgn phase and not wanting people to just going to blab their mouths about all the cool features the TEAM doesn't want the public to know yet. I see where its valid in teh game industry since there is so much going on that to just tell other companies what we are working on is not going to help you keep your job. But since you aren't getting paid for mod work then an NDA seems rather pointless.

[submdl]

If the developer was smart, then they wouldn't have to worry about someone blabbing their mouth. That's why you have applications.

[Fletch]

it's usually not even out of some sincere design to protect the "team." It's usually just the asshole leader wanting to retain all rights and try to sell it and keep all the money.

Oh, and unless a lawyer delivers you an NDA, anything they want you to agree to over the web has no legal standing, so really it's just bullshit in the end.

[wacko]

it's usually not even out of some sincere design to protect the "team." It's usually just the asshole leader wanting to retain all rights and try to sell it and keep all the money.

Oh, and unless a lawyer delivers you an NDA, anything they want you to agree to over the web has no legal standing, so really it's just bullshit in the end.

While some of what you say is true; in that MODs do not need NDAs as most of the content they have is already pretty much owned by the original game creator anyway. But I will not say that non-commercial products do not need NDAs as there is a need for internal projects or projects that could have sensitive data to be protected. While there is some merit to some projects who use modding as a tool for prototyping their ideas and those should be protected under NDAs. I do here again agree that there is just no need for mods having any sort of NDA.

Now as far as your comments in regards to agreements on the net not holding up as legally binding contracts, your are just wrong there. We have seen many cases in the court of law; that have allowed conversation on the internet to be admissible as evidence. E-mail conversation are just as usable as Phone conversation or face-to-face conversation. Along with that in many small claims court verbal agreements are upheld as legally binding contracts and the supreme court has stated in the US that internet conversations are just as admissible as verbal ones; which means that in many cases agreements on the internet could be held as a legally binding contract. While this is only true of course if your over the age of 18 or under the age of 18 and have parental consent(which in the case of a NDA a parent signing on your behalf). Just thought I would throw that in there.

[submdl]

I sense a long conversation is about to erupt...

[Furyo]

Emails being admissible proof in a court of law is a US (and other countries) thing, true, but there are other countries in which the law says exactly the opposite (France for one). It's not that the law doesn't exist, it does and claims that emails can too easily be forged and can't be traced well enough to be proof.

[Steppenwolf]

You don't want that people who have left your Mod in anger fuck around with your stuff and ruining the project. We have a NDA at Insurgency and i'm sure it has protected our stuff and strategy a few times during the last years.

Times have changed. You should accept that. A modern mod takes much much more time to complete and contains tons of more artwork etc.

It is wrong that a mod is property of the company who made the game. Only files directly connectet to the engine are their property (scripts for example) With the internet full of idiots it has become important to protect your property. This has nothing to do with professionalism. It has to do with safety.

I'm sure you as american wouldn't agree if someone says private persons don't need guns to protect their property.

[JamesL]

I'm sure you as american wouldn't agree if someone says private persons don't need guns to protect their property.

One can 'o worms at a time

[mabufo]

I'm sure you as american wouldn't agree if someone says private persons don't need guns to protect their property.

Just give me a baseball bat, and I'll do fine.

[kleinluka]

I would NEVER join a mod that made me sign an NDA. I don't care if its to protect the mod or whatever bullshit reason they come up with. My work is my work and if the team doesn't trust me then there's no point of me working with them to begin with..

you don't want that people who have left your Mod in anger fuck around with your stuff and ruining the project.

First of all, no you don't want that.. But it's really up to the individuals and its their right to do with their work whatever the hell they want. However I don't see how an NDA would help there. What are you gonna do? Take them to court over a mod? Oh ok.

[Izuno]

lol...Klein FTW.

BTW, submdl, interesting you bring up a professional question when your sig is about as unprofessional as it gets. gg.

[sensee]

Mod development is so wrong these days.

First of all, it's been almost 1.5 years since Half-Life 2 was released and there are very very few mods you can actually download and play. For me this is a clear sign that something is going terribly wrong.

Do you remember what the first Counter-Strike beta looked like? It had very cheap maps and no custom content except the weapons and the player models who looked like terrorist in pajamas and yet it did work and it was fun.

Nowdays mods are trying to compete against professional games in terms of graphics and content. They try to make total conversions with custom textures, custom models, custom animations... hell, some mod teams even have concept artists. Mod leaders are more acting like some executive suits with their "recruitments" and "NDAs" and b.s. like this.

There are tons of mods being developed for HL2 and only a smaller part of them will actually ever be completed. And even if they come out sometime in the year 2007, who's gonna play them?

Let's take a look at Dystopia for example. It's good looking mod with fun and innovative gameplay. They were also supported by Valve and got some publicity via Steam. The first demo was released long time ago and there were several updates since then. And guess what, less than 80 people are playing it right now! (http://steampowered.com/status/game_stats.html)

Maybe the mod teams of all these countless military shooters ("no, our mod is not like CS. it has different objectives and the M4A1 looks different...") should reconsider their philosophy.

I have lots of years of modding experience and I've been watching the whole scene for almost 8 years and I can't help but feel that there is (almost) no more love in the community.

[Hourences]

I completely agree with klein and the threadstarter. NDAs for mods are bullshit and nothing more than wannabe pro behavior.

What you going to do if someone breaks them ? The NDAs often arent legally correct + theres no way you are actualy going to sue the other person since most people are minor + it costs you a hell of a lot.

None of the mods that got released a few years ago used NDAs yet all we never experienced problems with people who tried to steal or release things. If it wasnt needed back then why would it be needed right now apart from trying to look interesting.

And its not about "more development time". For example we spend 2.5 years (thats more than most "next generation" mods you know) on a UT mod which turned out to be one of the biggest UT mods there were and we didnt had an NDA, we didnt had anything in fact (we didnt had leaks either!) apart from trust and skills and thats more important than a lame piece of paper.