NDAs...

[Fletch]

Now as far as your comments in regards to agreements on the net not holding up as legally binding contracts, your are just wrong there. We have seen many cases in the court of law; that have allowed conversation on the internet to be admissible as evidence.

There is a huge difference between admissable evidence and a binding legal contract. In the U S court system, evidence is simply any outside object or testimony to support your end of the story. It can be challenged, thrown out, or proven false by any lawyer worth his salt.

Situation 1: The mod maker made people sign the NDA to get sole legal rights to the work and keep all the profits.

Result: Unless the NDA was written by a lawyer who knows what he is doing, anything you agree to online transfering the rights to your work over to somebody else will get thrown out. There are a reason real NDAs are pages long. US copyright law is very complex. You miss a little clause here or there and it's worthless. In addition, judges and juries are given a large amount of leeway in cases like this where a 'woker' feels like an 'employer' has exploited his work. If a mod developer tried to keep all of the profits without a fair distribution to the people who made the assets, they'd be taken down very quickly in civil court.

Situation 2: The mod maker made people sign an NDA to prevent leaks.

Result: Nothing. What? You're going to take somebody to court? First off you'd have to bring them to court in whatever state or country they're in. You really going to fly to Nevada to sure somebody over your mod? Secondly, it would be a civil case, not criminal case, so your burden of proof is to show they have cause monetary harm to you and the mod, which is hard to do since 99% of mods don't produce profits. You can't present theorhetical profits you would have made down the line unless you already have a contract signed with a publisher, in which case the publisher's lawyers ahve probably already sent the team real NDAs. So if you're not going to take anybody to court, the best you can do is call them a poopypants on your mods website, which will make you look like bickering 14 year olds (which might very well be the case).

The only real benefit to NDAs is they act like psychological leashes to 14 year olds on your mod team that don't know any better. Since they think it's real, they'll keep in line. But honsetly, if some mod team tried to get me to agree to one, I'd just laugh. It's just instant sign #1 that there is some bad management going on. Either they're greedy or they're inept at getting the team to behave.

[Pericolos0]

We have a NDA at Insurgency

we do?

i though only the testers had to sign one, and even then it's more considered like rules you agree with rather than a legal contract. Abit like the disclaimer on a website

[mikezilla]

I think mods always made people agree to not give out information before, it was just simple and about trust.

Like a) if you give out our content to other mods I, b) fire you.

[kleinluka]

We have a NDA at Insurgency

we do?

i though only the testers had to sign one, and even then it's more considered like rules you agree with rather than a legal contract. Abit like the disclaimer on a website

lol

[KungFuSquirrel]

I think mods always made people agree to not give out information before, it was just simple and about trust.

Like a) if you give out our content to other mods I, b) fire you.

Yeah, with NW we just said "hey, don't put anything out there if we haven't officially released it," but I did make one embarrassing blunder with one pretty talented guy that I really regret looking back.

That was a little more critical being an SP project, since so much of the enjoyment could be ruined if you showed your entire hand too soon. MP you want to see all the maps, models, game types, etc. beforehand but in our case it was a lot more important that we play our hand carefully and not show some of the key locations and characters.

NS has a valid concern about PT changelogs getting out since those constantly change and can easily cause undue confusion and mayhem in the community, so they just say "hey, don't talk about anything until we announce an official changelog." But last I checked their 'NDA' that people constantly refer to is still just "hey, don't do this" and people not doing that.

But yeah, this mod NDA thing is ridiculous. Relax and have some fun, people.

[Skjalg]

I'm a part of two mods. In one of them I had to sign an 'NDA' if I were to continue because the leader got some trust issues. On the other mod they haven't even mentioned it because they are trustworthy nice guys. And its in the first mod that all the problems has happened, the second mod has just been a blast

and to Sensee, there is love out there... you just have to look at the right mods :] There will always be power hungry assholes out there though.

[submdl]

lol...Klein FTW.

BTW, submdl, interesting you bring up a professional question when your sig is about as unprofessional as it gets. gg.

Ok...

[The Postman]

nice rant. We hate "proffesional" acting mods.

nuclear dawn

[IR]

Now as far as your comments in regards to agreements on the net not holding up as legally binding contracts, your are just wrong there. We have seen many cases in the court of law; that have allowed conversation on the internet to be admissible as evidence.

There is a huge difference between admissable evidence and a binding legal contract. In the U S court system, evidence is simply any outside object or testimony to support your end of the story. It can be challenged, thrown out, or proven false by any lawyer worth his salt.

Situation 1: The mod maker made people sign the NDA to get sole legal rights to the work and keep all the profits.

Result: Unless the NDA was written by a lawyer who knows what he is doing, anything you agree to online transfering the rights to your work over to somebody else will get thrown out. There are a reason real NDAs are pages long. US copyright law is very complex. You miss a little clause here or there and it's worthless. In addition, judges and juries are given a large amount of leeway in cases like this where a 'woker' feels like an 'employer' has exploited his work. If a mod developer tried to keep all of the profits without a fair distribution to the people who made the assets, they'd be taken down very quickly in civil court.

Situation 2: The mod maker made people sign an NDA to prevent leaks.

Result: Nothing. What? You're going to take somebody to court? First off you'd have to bring them to court in whatever state or country they're in. You really going to fly to Nevada to sure somebody over your mod? Secondly, it would be a civil case, not criminal case, so your burden of proof is to show they have cause monetary harm to you and the mod, which is hard to do since 99% of mods don't produce profits. You can't present theorhetical profits you would have made down the line unless you already have a contract signed with a publisher, in which case the publisher's lawyers ahve probably already sent the team real NDAs. So if you're not going to take anybody to court, the best you can do is call them a poopypants on your mods website, which will make you look like bickering 14 year olds (which might very well be the case).

The only real benefit to NDAs is they act like psychological leashes to 14 year olds on your mod team that don't know any better. Since they think it's real, they'll keep in line. But honsetly, if some mod team tried to get me to agree to one, I'd just laugh. It's just instant sign #1 that there is some bad management going on. Either they're greedy or they're inept at getting the team to behave.

awsome. hahaha ^^^

yeh nothing to add that hasnt been said already

[Izuno]

lol...Klein FTW.

BTW, submdl, interesting you bring up a professional question when your sig is about as unprofessional as it gets. gg.

Ok...

just giving you a little flak, that's all. :-)

Sanity 1....NDA's 0

[Bluestrike]

Wel a NDA is really not a bad thing if youre a bit future minded and are looking for a publisher for example.

I doubt a NDA signed online or trough email holds much water but I have been in a mod what asked a signed papers trough snailmail.

The standaard mod NDA seems to be

I don't leak mod stuff, my property stays my own and I get proper credits for it, I can't deny the mod the content I made

I see no harm in it, ofcourse it should not be nessesary but jerks come in all kinds of disquises

Hey, just to play games or read forums we have to agree to some rules so why can't a mod have rules.

Even tough I doubt its that usefull and if 'bad' people would really care what they signed.

But if the mod I'm with wants me to sign something I have no problems with that as long as it matches with my own ethical laws.

On the other side I have been able te test beta's of games without having to sign anything :-)

[Thrik]

Fletch's post still reigns supreme.