Posts by Freaky_Banana

  • [CSGO] de_fumble - Looking for feedback on my WIP map!

    Hey, finally have some time to get back to this:

    First off, on looking back my initial message definitely comes off rude which isn't what I meant for. But you really took it well - thanks for that. Secondly, I collected a few examples of what I was talking about: https://imgur.com/a/8g3hUk2

    Concerning your other question, I was simply trying to suggest widening your pathes. In my personal experience, when I think about a layout in terms of pathes, I build long narrow corridors, because those are the 3D equivalent of the line on the layout. But maybe if you think about the same place in terms of an area, then suddenly a museum usually has large rooms because it wants to give room to the artworks. This way non-descript hallways can turn into real places that are naturally much more interesting and easier to build since you have a mental image of the specific place (this is also one of the main reasons I really like the butterfly room, it just feels like a real place in a surrealist museum).

    Building a believable place should also help with the "flow" that I talked about. In your current build especially on A there is several positions where you need to flick your view nearly 90° degrees in order to see the next relevant encounter spot, which puts you at a massive disadvantage in a precision shooter like CSGO and is in my opinion very unfun. But real museums are typically built in a way that "leads" you around an exhibition, providing a natural flow without too many sharp turns (leaving aside staircases). From the entrance of one room you can normally see the next doorway you're supposed to move to.

    I hope that explains what I mean.

  • [CSGO] de_fumble - Looking for feedback on my WIP map!

    Hey, I had a run around your map. Here is some impressions:

    • Confusion. Firstly, where the hell am I? And secondly where are the gameplay spaces? Especially on the bombsites I couldn't tell at all what positions I'm supposed to check and in which order when entering as a Terrorist. I think this is mainly to do with the...
    • Impractical Geometry. The layout uses lots of long straight and narrow corridors (obstructed by a frustrating amount of arbitrary items and height variation which turn nice straight lines into parkour). CSGO levels are generally built in a way that uses the world geometry (e.g. walls) to create natural cover and angles to play. In your map it seems like you tried to use exclusively props for this purpose. Also the scale of most areas seems unnatural.
    • Expanding on the previous point, the entire map is very narrow. Players like space to play with, at least in important areas where fights are expected to happen. It's no fun getting mowed down by a NEGEV just because the hallway is too narrow to avoid it.
    • Bombsite B felt much better than bombsite A, but the underground area has very unnatural proportions and weird approach angles.
    • Bombsite A is extremely chaotic. Anywhere I stand I can be shot from at least two different angles, usually even three or more. I would check Overpass' A Side of the map to see how large open spaces can be broken down into manageable individual areas and fights that make for fun confrontations.

    I would strongly suggest you reconsider the way you partition your map. Instead of having pathes in between the bombsites, think about the different areas that you want to include and how these can be strung together. When connecting these areas it is also important to think about the flow of gameplay. By this I mean when will there be fighting where and how can I make the approaches to (=the angles in...) these battles feel good for both sides?

    To achieve this personally I would scrap and redo the entire A side. I think you can keep B more or less for a first iteration, but there will definitely be some rescaling that wants doing. To summarize, the map has its cool moments (I like the butterfly room a lot for its dreamy vibe!) but in its current state seems in no way fit for competitive.

  • de_rochosa [Wingman]

    Hey,

    I just ran around and checked it out. This is an album of feedback I collected. https://imgur.com/a/8RWorxs

    Overall it seemed like a super fun and fastpaced map. Because it is so open on the bombsite, I fully expect no round to go longer than 45 seconds.

    Also, I believe CTs might struggle, just because all CT defense positions have to worry about the long flank through CT spawn area, so it is either a 1v2 on the bombsite, if they decide to hold down the long flank, or they have to split attention multiple ways constantly, opening up sizeable timing windows for Ts to just walk through chokes.

    PS: Just found this: Use a block with the cs_italy "black" texture on all sides to cover the gap and pull the prop down a few units so it's actually on the floor.

  • de_sillar (WIP)

    We cannot judge gameplay off the layout alone, since CS is a game of hitting your shots and that is about the exact engagement opportunities and more often than not a matter of millimeters. However, simply looking at this, I do see you found many opportunities to incorporate the archways and sillar pillars that seem prevalent in your reference images, which makes your sketch seem like a good place to start. Once you have a blockout, we will be able to say more.

  • de_loreley [wingman]

    OK, small update: Gameplay is locked in for now! The current workshop version is the one that I will add the initial 3D skybox to.

    After its implementation I will get in contact with creators and try to involve their communities to help playtest somehow (wish me luck!).

    From that point forward I will make pretty whatever part of the map I feel like is going to remain relatively untouched.

  • de_loreley [wingman]

    I've pushed a new update to the workshop (hopefully gets approved tonight). https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/fi…/?id=2392048922

    Mainly I've removed a slice of the plantzone that was on the Terrorist end of the bus as well as the possibility for self-boosting into the window from the street (by insetting the number plate). Also there were tiny fixes and adding more believable cover/detail, for instance these doors for the houses or an electrical box on the side of the train station.

    And @blackdog , I agree on that approach. For now I am a little bit hesitant to ask creators for their thoughts, since the aesthetics are really underdeveloped. For that reason I believe I will start by contacting 3kliksphilip, because he's known for being very gameplay-centric with custom maps. But I already have plans for a 3D skybox that I would like to implement very soon (after a final round with the SE discord community test). That is my go-ahead moment for reaching out to anyone else. Thanks for your advice!

  • de_loreley [wingman]

    Thanks for your reply! I agree that simplifying the other areas should help reduce the feeling of being overwhelmed as a CT. In fact, a change sort of like what you sketched out for the train tunnel is something I had planned to implement regardless of the potential boost changes. Maybe that difference alone will help reduce the uncomfortable feeling to an acceptable degree. Here are some WIP progress pictures of what I did:

    Spoiler The inside path for the train tunnel has been closed ("Zutritt für Unbefugte verboten!"). The first picture shows the remaining tunnel exit. Also the long sightline through the tunnel end-to-end has been closed again.

    this becomes the only chokepoint CTs have to deal with from now on:

    ... they can do so comfortably from multiple different positions:

    In addition I rotated the train station and repositioned the cars in an attempt to create a more natural defensive position for CTs from which they can access the boost, the street and the tunnel with only minor movements.

    Spoiler The cars now:

    ... looking in the direction of the boost

    And to touch on your second point as well: you rightly pointed out that playtesting with more different people might already sharpen the image of what the real issues are. And I would love to playtest with more new people! Standing against that is that a) wingman is always only four players at a time, instead of a potential 20 for a casual test, and b) there seem to be no fixed-time playtests for wingman maps in general (which I entirely understand from an organizer's point of view). This means it has to be impromptu playtests every time, which then creates a different limitation: Most of the time it's the same stock of people who agree to do playtesting for the map. I guess I could ask for specifically only new people every time, but I am afraid of spamming the always same discord channels with too many playtest requests and building a reputation that way.

    Do you agree on my assessment of this issue or is it just a normal part of level design and I'm overthinking it?

    Thanks for reading.

  • de_loreley [wingman]

    Hi everyone,

    there's been more playtests and I want to share with you something that I've noticed and am struggling to address so far. It concerns the discrepancy of what playtesters report as problems and how they actually play the level. I have found that at least on this map specifically, my playtesters express concerns about possibilities that rarely have any relevance in their games and that work exactly as intended when they do ever so rarely happen.

    I'm hoping that some of you might have relevant experience or advice for me on how to deal with this dichotomy of what playtesters say and what they do, especially in regards to which changes to implement and which complaints to ignore.

    Straight to the point, let me introduce to you what has been vexing me recently:

    This is a one-way drop located at the CT end of beach which I added in a recent version of the map (replacing a stair). This drop was introduced in an effort to reduce flank opportunities for Ts and allow the CTs to focus more on the main confrontations on the street and tunnel level.

    I felt this change was necessary because multiple people had given feedback that it felt very difficult for CTs to cover all four T pathes of approach (Tunnel, Street, Apps and Beach). I figured this solution would significantly reduce the necessity to check beach as a CT, because in wingman mode, a boost requires the entire team thus making it very obvious when it's happening: If no T has shown anywhere on the map, maybe you need to check the boost. This is further helped by the fact that this boost spot is the farthest to reach from T spawn by a large margin (14 secs knife-running vs ~7 secs to other positions). At the same time this change clearly conveyed to Ts the opportunity for a flank along the beach, something that apparently hadn't gotten through before: In all previous playtests combined a single T had ever used the beach path.

    Playtesting with this one-way drop in place delivered on my expectations exactly: The very first round Ts committed to the boost after roughly 20 seconds. CTs by this time had become suspicious of the lack of contact and one player had rotated into the boost, where a fight then ensued. After this, the boost wasn't used again in the 11 following rounds played. Yet, after the game playtesters reported that they felt like the map still had too many pathes. They described this as a "chaotic nature" and singled out especially the beach as the best candidate for getting removed, because it leads attackers into your back, making it hard to check both ways constantly as a CT. Looking at the numbers of how often Ts use the beach, this may appear a logical suggestion. Unfortunately, this solution fails to recognize something that every single CT player (including the ones advocating the beach's removal) repeatedly took advantage of in their games: pushing the beach as a CT.

    The beach plays an important role for CTs: it is the one opportunity they have for getting a flank going. At every other position they could push, Ts hold significant advantages in cover, timing and number of playable angles. Thus the beach is the single source of variety in gameplay for CTs, with its equal footing for aggressive fights. This variety seems very welcome to players: In the latest playtest alone, the beach was pushed by a CT five times in 12 rounds.

    This leaves me with a dilemma. Should I trust the (very limited) data and keep the boost or should I remove it simply to soothe CTs' minds? I believe this boils down to a few aspects which all revolve around a similar concern:

    - How much should I prioritize feedback from playtesters with limited experience on the map?

    - Could CTs get used to the boost once they learn the level (and is it smart to have such a barrier to entry in place, trading off player numbers for gameplay depth?)

    - Do I find it advisable to reduce the path variety for Ts in both gameplay and visuals (the beach is a major part of Loreley's theme) and render the entire beach effectively unnecessary for them?

    = How do I balance playtesters' (/players') perception versus my knowledge and the data of how the map is played?

    As mentioned in the introduction, I'd be grateful for any advice.

    Thanks for reading.

  • de_loreley [wingman]

    Hi everyone,

    time for an update! I recently did playtesting with some people from the SE discord and have gathered valuable feedback on my latest version (I had shifted CT spawn onto the beach, see the radar of what we playtested in this Spoiler). EDIT: Workshop version of changes now live! https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/fi…/?id=2392048922

    Spoiler


    The Positives:

    Spoiler + Everyone liked the map's theme and found the location believable.

    + There seem to be no "broken" spots or tactics

    + Individual angles played well


    The Downsides:

    Spoiler - too many pathes split by large cover pieces.This makes defending those locations difficult and face-offs focused more on movement than on aim.

    - everpresent danger of flanks.This makes especially CTs feel unsafe as it felt extremely hard to predict where to expect enemies.

    - restrictive clipping.Players REALLY BADLY want to jump onto the wall of the restaurant's terrace.

    - shoddy visibility in places.

    - Terrorists didn't use the beach.Out of the 11 rounds played in the match, a Terrorist walked up the beach exactly twice. This is consistent with previous testing and something my changes apparently didn't address well. The way I intended the beach to be played for Ts was as a mid- to late-round flank that rewards patient play by allowing the Ts to get behind common CT defense positions. I had hoped that placing the CT spawn on the beach and T spawn at the train tunnel would allow Ts who wanted to be aggressive to simply play through tunnel for an early plant. I thought CTs would have to respect this fact, thereby necessarily drawing them away from the beach (by far the most out of the way area of the map), in turn opening it up for the flank. This did not work at all. Ts (seeing the obvious timing disadvantage) were afraid to EVER walk down to the beach, because they assumed it be a permanently CT controlled area. And the two times a T did roam the beach, they complained about a lack of cover and one even decided to rotate back into the apartments instead.


    New Changes (with pics):

    Spoiler

    • I shifted T spawn down onto the street from its previous position on the train tracks.Combined with the next change this should allow Ts to contest the beach positions early in the round.
    • I created a new CT spawn area (themed as a pier)This pushes CTs two seconds back from beach without impacting their timings to the other positions.
    • I added cover to the beach in the shape of a small platform that sticks out into the river and has some loungers on it. Storywise this area belongs to the annoying hotel/restaurant combo that is attracting all the tourists (a fact shown on the map by the platforms connection to the doorway under the restaurant terrace). Credit for the loungers to SKybex from his map cs_cruise!
    • I moved the three trucks closer to the mountain, effectively closing the inner path around.This forces the T approach on the street to get through the chokepoint at the yellow van, which should make the area easier for CTs to lock down. This in turn incentivises Ts to make more use of the beach (+apartment) and tunnel for rushes and use street almost exclusively for GODREADS or proper executes with utility. Closing that path also creates a pocket for CTs to play from later in the round that faces in the direction of potential flanks. Additionally this change reduces the complexity of streetside afterplant scenarios significantly (which is probably a good thing because I suspect my playtesters didn't realise how good early bombplant rushes from emergency exit actually are).
    • I made the CT side traincart a flatbed with a container on it.The container's only half the length of the old traincart which opens up and thereby streamlines (/simplifies) the area. I'm interested to see how this will impact the tunnel meta, because for the first time in a long time it opens up a straight sightline through the entire tunnel end-to-end.
    • Quality of life changescut back clipping on the terrace (can't remove the beachside wall's clips, though, it's just too broken), made the luggage gap accesible again, included stair's first steps in their clip brushes and fixed one spot where players could bump early in the round.

    I really hope that these changes make the map more intuitive for all players. I think the previous version fell short because it didn't work in the way that CS:GO players are used to play. I am optimistic that my simplification both of pathes and of map control address this issue. Please let me know what you think!

    Thank you for reading!

  • De_Frozen

    The theme of this map looks really cool and I think your first "pretty corner" is gorgeous!

    I'm very much looking forward to what you will do with this project, but as you rightly said, the layout seems suboptimal for competitive 5v5 in its current state.

    Keep it up!

  • Battery

    I really like the way CT Spawn looks. For middle I haven't checked it out in game but maybe you will want to add a little more contrast there. It all looks quite flat, grey and same-y, even though the lighting does help out a bit.

    Edit: I checked it out in game now.

    From CT side all is fine but as a T I didn't have the faintest clue where to expect engagement in mid. And even after I had picked out where the defense spots were, it was hard to judge depth. Colored walls or some plants would really help with guiding attention to the right spots and giving sharp edges or features by which to understand the space. Also dividing focus between that big wooden box to the right and the far back position (CT spawn entrance) felt uncomfortable.

    On another note, I really love the theming on the path from T Spawn into B through long. My only grievance here is the really awkward path to the double doors. Walking in circles feels bad and it significantly increases rotate times since you essentially have to walk that entire section, if the bomb was planted on B.


    I do really like the map though, so keep it up!

    Cheers

  • de_loreley [wingman]

    Hello everyone,

    just in time for you to play over the easter break, I have pushed an update to Loreley addressing the feedback from the last playtesting session.

    Yiu can find all updated screenshots at the imgur link: https://imgur.com/gallery/yfOQJZQ

    just in time for you to play over the easter break, I have finished an update for Loreley. I would love if you check it out.

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/fi…/?id=2392048922

    After the next round of playtesting I hope to move on to visuals given everything works fine.

    Cheers

  • [CS:GO] de_Viejo_new

    Quote from Terrasul

    16 hours ago, Terrasul said:

    Made some changes to the Layout and added a radar.

    Hey, this layout looks really interesting! A few remarks from just running around with bots: B seems very easy to take. Seems like you really don't want to be stuck in the site. Also the main A path for Ts doesn't feel super great, just a little too contrived. Similarly for CTs, the courtyard feels a little too open? But that's probably intended. Finally, I hope this radar reflects new updates that simply aren't on the workshop yet, because I think mid would benefit from having less tight chokepoints. If you want to make mid go through the church, maybe think about making some of these really huge double doors as the entrances on both sides. Something like this but 5/3 the size:

    In any case, excited to see, where this is going!

  • [CS:GO] de_sapper

    Quote from wazeecha

    On 2/16/2021 at 11:20 AM, wazeecha said: [Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/grmq5pL.jpg]

    The sign I hand-painted in gimp from reference, and I'm really pleased with how it turned out despite the mild case of carpal-tunnel.

    [Blocked Image: https://cdn.myonlinestore.eu/93ef9d32-6be1-11e9-a722-44a8421b9960/image/cache/full/277a032368e09ec8cfebe7f27235bfe8844ac18c.jpg]

    Holy hell, that is some REALLY NICE barbershop signs!

  • de_loreley [wingman]

    Thanks for your great feedback, Zombi! I agree with a lot of these points. Spent some time today to address them:

    Spoiler

    I added warm yellow lighting to the cornerstore. This will hopefully guide the player to it after spawn.

    I made the gap in the bar counter wider. You were absolutely right there. I hope the new width is better (even though it is not quite as large as what you indicated in your picture).

    I made the ramp you suggested, simply built it into the walkway instead of onto the tracks.


    Last but certainly not least, I have a few different ideas for how to address your concern with getting up onto the tracks at T Spawn: I could make a few tiered flowerbeds, which are actually quite prevalent in the Rhine basin. If I am to implement stairs, I will likely place them differently than you indicated, but I have an idea for it. For now I haven't implemented any of these ideas, because I want to playtest this version first.


    Changes are now live on the workshop version. Cheers!