Interview with Garry on Shacknews

Quote from FrieChamp

Exactly my thoughts.

So what? Its popularity still exceeds any other hl2 mod's out there.

Would you play Earth's Special Forces?

because I would rather eat my own face

I skipped around in it, where was the Black Mesa stab?

As Steppen said, I don't think Garry knows much about doing a huge mod with a team and other factors in the mix except for your own code and pre-made models.

And where is the gameplay in Gmod? I never actually played anything in Gmod, except some dumb thrusters on a cart with some ragdol hoes in it.

Are there more "gameplay" things in Gmod10?

It's not like he did it for popularity, either; he just happened to hit upon something that a ton of people find really fun that didn't involve years of effort or a massive team - there's a lot to be said for that.

There's also a lot to be said for people who work within a big team and produce a highly involved big-time project, but while I disagree with the shot at Black Mesa, I whole heartedly agree it's counter-productive to hang onto something for years rather than iteratively improving it. Alas, cursed hindsight. :\

I mean, Valve's regretting using the 'episodic' term as they're doing basically yearly expansion packs, but the people who should be embracing that concept the most are mod teams where the resources of a commercial product don't exist. Imagine if on NW we'd taken Adam's first chunk of the game with the first couple weapons and enemies, and released that. Then built upon that momentum and success to release tommy's comms facility a couple months later, with new enemies, an extra weapon, or something like that. I think had I had the knowledge and experience I have now back then, there's no way I'd have tried to do it all at once in the huge package we were promising. It'd have let us stay smaller, more focused, and more productive - and we'd have something tangible to show for the effort other than a couple lines on a resume and some old archived screenshots.

Quote from dux

Garry is really popular here at insurgency.Cough.

Quote from Steppenwolf

Garry knows jack shit about developing a big mod.

Just because Insurgency took 5 years to release anything doesn't mean you have to be bitter about it.

As for all the "haters" taking pot shost at GMod and Insect Invasion for releasing buggy versions, I'll take this moment to remind you that they're doing exactly what mod's are supposed to do: release early, release often. People are so concerned with being CS or DoD right out of the gate, they completely forget that CS and DoD both started as shitty, ugly, buggy mods. CS Beta 1 could barely stay up on a server for an entire map. DoD Beta 1 would randomly spawn you at the wrong base with no weapons. If you're a mod, you can probably test with your mod team and close friends, but you can't afford a full QA staff, so just release the damn thing and let players and server admins submit bugs to you so you have real world data about what is causing breaks. Figure it out, patch it, move on to the next release. You don't have to be out of the gate with 30 weapons, 10 player models, and a dozen maps. Get a beta out with working game mechanics, a few player models, and a few maps. Grow from there. It is the one advantage that mods have over retail products. You can be nimble and release as you go. If you don't take advantage of that one thing, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. Think of it this way: who do you think is a better candidate for a job? The guy who releases a mod on a set schcedule and is able to grow it over the years? Or the guy who sits on the same mod for the same time period and only has one thing to show for it?

But hey... go ahead and rag of Garry. I'm sure he'd be happy to compare download and server stats with you.

Quote from JeanPaul

I skipped around in it, where was the Black Mesa stab?

Quote

Shack: From your perspective, what's the state of the mod community like right now?Garry Newman: I don't know what's going on. You've got these big-ass mods like Black Mesa that have awesome graphics, but they've been in development for three years and all they've given us is 64 highly sharpened screenshots.

But on the other hand you've got these great mods that are released, like Insect Infestation, and hardly anyone's playing. It kind of pains me to see that Insect Infestation isn't making much of a splash. It's doing everything right. It's different, it's releasing regular updates, but no one's paying attention.

Quote from Fletch

Just because Insurgency took 5 years to release anything doesn't mean you have to be bitter about it.

As for all the "haters" taking pot shost at GMod and Insect Invasion for releasing buggy versions, I'll take this moment to remind you that they're doing exactly what mod's are supposed to do: release early, release often. People are so concerned with being CS or DoD right out of the gate, they completely forget that CS and DoD both started as shitty, ugly, buggy mods. CS Beta 1 could barely stay up on a server for an entire map. DoD Beta 1 would randomly spawn you at the wrong base with no weapons. If you're a mod, you can probably test with your mod team and close friends, but you can't afford a full QA staff, so just release the damn thing and let players and server admins submit bugs to you so you have real world data about what is causing breaks. Figure it out, patch it, move on to the next release. You don't have to be out of the gate with 30 weapons, 10 player models, and a dozen maps. Get a beta out with working game mechanics, a few player models, and a few maps. Grow from there. It is the one advantage that mods have over retail products. You can be nimble and release as you go. If you don't take advantage of that one thing, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. Think of it this way: who do you think is a better candidate for a job? The guy who releases a mod on a set schcedule and is able to grow it over the years? Or the guy who sits on the same mod for the same time period and only has one thing to show for it?

But hey... go ahead and rag of Garry. I'm sure he'd be happy to compare download and server stats with you.

Your Insect Invasion point doesn't hold water at all, as the mod has been a diasaster in terms of popularity. G-Mod has not, however that has nothing to do with development style.

G-Mod has been a success because its the first of its kind and has more in common with an arcadey type casual game than it does an FPS. Or, for that matter, a large team effort like Black Mesa. You can't really compare the development styles of a G-Mod or a Black Mesa or an Insurgency, when you do, you get games like Dystopia which have had a really incrimental dev style and that have for all intents and purposes been collasal failures. You have to give people something retail quality to even hold their interest briefly, games like Dystopia didn't deliver on the goods early on and so soured most of their audience quickly.

I wouldn't play G-Mod for five seconds, and as an artist I'll take any mod including INS, BM:S, hell even Insect Invasion over it. Peronsally, even calling G-Mod a game is generous as I see it as an incredibly simplified SDK

lol fletch what am i bitter about? Insurgency had a extremely succesfull first release with still around 1k players after nearly a month.

I just say he knows jack shit because that is the truth and he proves it again and again with his arrogant comments towards bigger projects. He doesn't know what it means to manage dozens of people and create something that is really complex in the making. Yet he wrote in his review that Insurgency could have been done in 6 months. This is pure bullshit.

Quote from FrieChamp

Even Valve told the community long time ago: if you don't release your MOD in smaller chunks, in iterations, then you are losing the biggest advantage that MODs have over retail games. Valve is actually trying to compensate exactly this now by going episodic.

I will just again stress how much of a complete and utter failure Dystopia, the shining paragon and example of the type of mod development you're propsing has been.

The game currently has 88 players

also Source mod failures with this style:

PVK 2

Battlegrounds 2

HL2 CTF

Eternal Silence

Source Forts

Goldeneye Source

Hidden Source

mods not doing horribly in terms of player count:

Zombie Master (relatively new mod, still low player count)

the exceptions:

Garry's Mod 9 (which has had steam advertisement as a commercial product, and is a casual game)

number one amateur (free) Source mod:

Insurgency

So next time you say release early release often take a look at the stats list and realize your strategy has failed in HL2 modding more than its worked

well its difficult to argue against prototyping, but the evidence suggest having a an actual publicly downloadable release policy of "release early, release often" approach doesn't do any better and in fact may do worse in practice than developing something of retail scope with Source mods.

all you need to do is consult the stats, as I did with my little chart

There are simply more advantages to releasing often.. the biggest one is, as most of you have mentioned that you can make lots of small tweaks along the way and make the game better and better all the time. The second biggest is probably the whole PR thing, you are always in the news' and people will mention your mod more often (new version is out!! orly?).

Quote from Skjalg

There are simply more advantages to releasing often.. the biggest one is, as most of you have mentioned that you can make lots of small tweaks along the way and make the game better and better all the time. The second biggest is probably the whole PR thing, you are always in the news' and people will mention your mod more often (new version is out!! orly?).

Or you're like ND or BM:S and make hl2.net or hl2fallout with 2-3 screenshots. Just a thought, hype matters :wink:

I think BM:S would have a much easier time getting media on one of the news sites than a "release early release often"er like say, Insect Invasion.

I also think that people like Valve should think a wee bit and take a look at the example they set with holding their newest sequel back for 2 years before they say release early release often.

Just like those dismal flops of Counter-Strike and Day of Defeat, eh? Or Natural Selection, that for months only had a hacked together technology release of only bare bones functionality and a couple partial texture sets? That drew far more people to the mod than a hushed team would have, and people even made up their own games with it while waiting for the full release (skulk racing anyone?). Those were the mods for Half-Life, and every one of them had at least some form of early hack of a release to start building interest, support, and even draw more talent to be a part of it. You can't just point to Dystopia and say "nuh-uh, look, the entire system is flawed" - if it didn't work for them, well, that's unfortunate for them but not an argument against the entire method.

Garry's mod is no more an exception than the widespread appeal of the Wii - it's simple, and it's fun as hell. Does anyone even remember the stuff randomnine did back in the day? Canned Tuna? Turbo, the snark racing mod? It's great when a big group of people get together and do something big and impressive, and I agree that it's shitty of garry to be taking potshots at mods, but people have got to stop treating every mod like it has to be a replace-every-last-bit-of-original-content re-invent the wheel retail-equivalent package in order to be worthy of play or respect.

Quote

I also think that people like Valve should think a wee bit and take a look at the example they set with holding their newest sequel back for 2 years before they say release early release often.

They already have, as I mentioned in my earlier post; they regret using the episodic term applied to the HL2 expansions, and 'release early, release often' does not hold true for retail products.

Okay, define "failure." So they didn't become gigantic successes - not many mods do. They still have passionate fan-bases. Join any SourceForts server and try to learn all the advanced building techniques that have evolved. Watching that HL2 CTF video where Valve planted their own cheats in the code was also pretty entertaining. People still play Adrenaline Gamer.

I think the problem is that people are doing "release often" but not following up with "iterate." Okay, so the gameplay isn't interesting - the solution isn't a balance change or a new player class, it's a different set of rules and game modes... But then you risk upsetting the community that has stayed on since the beginning. In any case, I agree that none of this is as simple as Garry makes it sound.

And a BMS rebuttal (not speaking for the team though): I agree in principle with "release often," but I don't think we'll get much benefit out of iteration. We're basically just doing a facelift on Half-Life 1; there's not much gameplay to iterate and test. Plus, it's single player. People are going to play it once at most, and I don't blame them.

Quote from KungFuSquirrel

Just like those dismal flops of Counter-Strike and Day of Defeat, eh? Or Natural Selection, that for months only had a hacked together technology release of only bare bones functionality and a couple partial texture sets? That drew far more people to the mod than a hushed team would have, and people even made up their own games with it while waiting for the full release (skulk racing anyone?). Those were the mods for Half-Life, and every one of them had at least some form of early hack of a release to start building interest, support, and even draw more talent to be a part of it. You can't just point to Dystopia and say "nuh-uh, look, the entire system is flawed" - if it didn't work for them, well, that's unfortunate for them but not an argument against the entire method.Garry's mod is no more an exception than the widespread appeal of the Wii - it's simple, and it's fun as hell. Does anyone even remember the stuff randomnine did back in the day? Canned Tuna? Turbo, the snark racing mod? It's great when a big group of people get together and do something big and impressive, and I agree that it's shitty of garry to be taking potshots at mods, but people have got to stop treating every mod like it has to be a replace-every-last-bit-of-original-content re-invent the wheel retail-equivalent package in order to be worthy of play or respect.

We're talking about Source mods. When you introduce HL1 stuff you dismiss the importance of hardware, which is foolish.

There are more than one variable, and your strategy HAS failed for Source.

Quote from Campaignjunkie

Okay, define "failure." So they didn't become gigantic successes - not many mods do. They still have passionate fan-bases. Join any SourceForts server and try to learn all the advanced building techniques that have evolved. Watching that HL2 CTF video where Valve planted their own cheats in the code was also pretty entertaining. People still play Adrenaline Gamer.I think the problem is that people are doing "release often" but not following up with "iterate." Okay, so the gameplay isn't interesting - the solution isn't a balance change or a new player class, it's a different set of rules and game modes... But then you risk upsetting the community that has stayed on since the beginning. In any case, I agree that none of this is as simple as Garry makes it sound.

I'd say having sub 100 players is a failure, because not only have you failed to reach alot of people but considering most of these mods are multiplayer only, you've not met your one and only goal of providing a game.

They don't have bots, of course, so if you load up an Insects Invasion and see no servers, you literally cannot play that game.

fmp is absolutely right. look how succesfull the mods are that released early.

ins would be in this list if we had released 1-2 years ago. Sure it took a long time but now we have a mod that we can build up on. Its still flawed in many aspects (bugs, missing stuff, balancing issues, annoyances etc) but its good enough that a shitload of people will download and play 1.2 when its out.

you gotta see that valve guys come from hl1 modding and this just wasnt the same. you could map a complete map in a month back in the days. Nowadays it takes 6 to 12 months or even more for someone who does it in his free time. And thats only one of many aspect for a complete mod.

The mod i worked on before Insurgency took 2 years to release. Many people thought it would be too late but still when it was released it was the most played mp mod for Call of Duty for a long time.

So from my personal experience with now two succesfull released projects i have to disagree strongly with the early release strategy.

It may work for just "mods". But nowadays it doesn't work anymore for more ambitious projects. A good thing takes his time.

Quote from KungFuSquirrel

They already have, as I mentioned in my earlier post; they regret using the episodic term applied to the HL2 expansions, and 'release early, release often' does not hold true for retail products.

Quote from Steppenwolf

It may work for just "mods". But nowadays it doesn't work anymore for more ambitious projects. A good thing takes his time.

I think these two points summarize the situation, a mod like Garry's mod which has no ambition of being a retail-competetive game in visuals or storytelling or gunplay etc etc can be developed for an engine like Source quickly because it (being a totally unconventional type of game) completely dodges what is for everyone else standard requirements.

On the other hand, you could never compare it with a Black Mesa Source, which Garry did quite mistakenly, because they have really nothing in common as games, either through development or when released. The people at Black Mesa have, no offense to Garry, alot more on their plate and a much higher expectation threshold in everything from visuals to gameplay to sound to code polish. Apples and oranges through and through.

That misunderstanding was Garry's error and as has been said, Valve's at one point too. But I am still proud of games like Insurgency, Nuclear Dawn, Black Mesa, Fortress Forever which prove that not everyone in modding is in it to make silly sand box games and remain dedicated to the goal of creating a retail-comparable game