Posts by Steppenwolf

I have a feeling that between this video and the one from the girl on the site before everything has been said that is to be said about "Women vs. Tropes Part 1".

Better get used to it. Ther's still 11 more videos coming.

Quote from Jetsetlemming

It was a quick post in the morning before I had to go to class, bro. I didn't have time to go citing evidence, I was just clarifying my point of view (which, incidentally, is backed up by my education in psychology, biology, and cultural studies).

As an aside, the fact that you dismiss poetry as a worthless appeal to emotion, instead of trying to analyze what it means and think about why I shared it, is a point of view instilled upon you by popular culture and society. Somewhere in an alternate universe, you're writing poetry yourself to express your frustration that someone on the internet disagrees with you.

Appeal to emotion is a fallacy so yes i have to dismiss it when i asked for evidence over and over again over the last few pages. And to clarify your position you should perhaps start to share some of your own opinions and argumentations instead of letting others do the guesswork.

Quote from Jetsetlemming

You misunderstood me, I apologize. I'm not accusing you of being transphobic or believing things are "mostly biological." I'm the one taking an extreme point here. I'm claiming that, for the biological differences between the two primary sexes (distinct from the biologically variety between individual people or families), they do not have any influence on our lives beyond reproduction. Even the supposed differences higher levels of androgen or estrogen are easily countered by individual variety, such as sensitivity to these hormones, and current body state. Women are not the "weaker sex," rather men are trained to be strong. Women are not the "emotional sex," boys are strictly forbidden from displaying strong emotions. Women are not the "artistic sex," boys are demanded to be practical in focus. These are gender roles enforced by the cultural stereotypes we see every single day when we look at media. There is no reason for this, beyond the arbitrary cultural tradition of male-dominated western culture.

I'll continue this later, but for now I've got to go, so I'll leave you with this:

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/a-work-of-artifice/

Nice how again instead of providing some evidence for your claims you appeal to emotion via a poem. It's the same shtick Anita thrives on.

Not to mention it's obvious nonsense what you write. Again watch the documentary i linked above.

If men and women are equal biologicaly outside of reproduction organs then why we still seperate them in physically demanding sporting activities? Because if both are trained to be strong the male athletes still have a physical advantage for biologic reasons.

Who forbids boys to show emotion? It's 2013 not the 1950's. If it still happens it's an issue not a cultural norm. Women the "artistic sex"? Now you're pulling stuff out of your ass. I haven't even heard of such a stereotype and how can that be considering how many famous artists have been males throughout the ages?

If you don't happen to live in a sharia state you can't say with a straight face that anyone is enforcing these stereotypes. Culture and social norms are shifting. They have been for the last 50-100 years and will continue to.

If you're not happy with how things are you have everything at your disposal to make an individual effort to accelerate cultural shift. You do that by creating culturaly relevant content not by moaning about patriarchy.

Quote from Jetsetlemming

Yes. Girls are raised from birth to fulfill a feminine role, which is not one of computer science or engineering. Women are absolutely capable of programming and designing things, but are told their entire lives that they must be pretty and focus on aesthetics and other people and be nice and kind and polite and respectful and defer to others and be a wife and be a mom and be a caretaker.

That bullshit imo in todays western world. Girls/women have access to the same ressources as men. Girls are also intelligent human beings who can make up their own mind about what they want to be and what they want to do. If you say all that is decided by external factors and not their own capability to make decisions then you are undermining their intellect. And guess what that's sexist as fuck.

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This is what those mean ole feminists are talking about when they talk about the Patriarchy. Do you think that most nurses are women and most doctors are men because of an innate biological difference? Do you attribute anything whatsoever except the differences in reproductive role to innate biological differences which are universal per-gender? If so, how do you square people who aren't "normal" male or female on the biological spectrum, such as those with XYY, Adrenal Insensitivity or Hyperactivity, Hermaphroditus, etc?

I recommend you watch this documentary. There are indeed biological reasons why males and females get attracted to different occupations tendentionaly. There are always exceptions from the rule and im totaly fine with that. That's what equality is about to not put obstacles in their way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrsF7wyUxs8

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To Steppenwolf: Mainstream feminism doesn't want to take away your porn, your ridiculous fantasy wobbly women, or your damsels in distress. The problem is their over representation and domination of the depictions of women in general, not their very existence.

Oh yes they do. Anita doesn't promote more variation she wants these things gone. Just watch her old videos and the things she complains about. If she thinks a sexy ad for Bayonetta promotes sexual assault then of course she wants to see such things gone.

You are completely right about the over representation tho. I agree with that and said it before in this thread. But the burden to even this out isn't just on men. Females have to participate if they want change. Like in one video complains Anita that wikipedia is 90% dominated by males. Then what stops her and other females from registering there, learn how it works and what the rules are and then start writing articles herself? And it's the same for every other medium that she criticises. Comics are dominated with male themes? Then find some women who like comics and start drawing some damn comics. It's not even like you need anyones permission or money nowadays to create any kind of content in a time where a shit load of stuff gets released on the internet by indie people.

I had a talk with my parents today. It started with my father repeating an oldschool casualy sexist joke that he heard on the street the other day. Everybody laughed but i told him that such jokes are not really cool anymore in todays society and that he as an older man saying such things is basicaly the equivalent of old people making casualy racist remarks when he was a bit younger. Both mom and dad agreed.

Then i told my mom, who is an avid Nintendo DS player, that ther's a woman on the internet who made a video about how Princess Peaches is harmful to young girls and that she gets lots of support and hate for it. My mom looked very baffled and first she asked "Why, because she flies around with an umbrella?". And i said no that's a different game and explained the Damsel in Distress trope to her and that it's about Mario. It made my mom laugh out loud (not kidding you) and she said she thinks it's utter nonsense.

On a different note i watched a video from girlwriteswhat today who made a good analogy imo about how the feminists attempt to control what men are allowed to see and enjoy is basicly like removing the burka from womens bodies and strapping it in front of mens eyes instead.

Quote from Jetsetlemming

I'm not really one to back down about something I care about, like equality. I expect much more from artists and designers than "post tits"

See in my mind the whole issue isn't about equality at all. Equality isn't to take away from men the things they enjoy like depictions of sexy women with big wobbling breasts (and stigmatizing them for that they like such things). Especialy not in a free flowing medium like art. To try and suppress this for political reasons is an attack on freedom.

To me equality is about equal rights and opportunities, nothing more and nothing less, which i support 100% for both genders and everything inbetween.

Quote from csyver

or whether this stereotype is harmful/sexist?

This. Tho i care more about the harmful part. What's considered sexist i think ther's a big semantic gap between what i would define as such and what a dogmatic feminist defines as sexist.

Quote from csyver

You can't just attribute Nintendo's overuse of damsel in distress-trope to ignorance or lack of creativity. They're grown adults and they know perfectly well what they're doing. No, they're not "made with malicious intend". That's not what she's saying at all. She's criticizing that they don't give a shit. Nintendo uses Peach/Zelda as damsel in distress-plot devices for gameplay-purposes and they don't care about the sexist repercussions of it. Her video is an attempt to make developers more aware of these things.

You are basicly repeating her claims without further reflecting on them. There are no proven sexist repercussions in the Peaches character. That's what Anita claims and doesn't provide any evidence for, not even anecdotes. So why should Nintendo care? They should care because the trope is overused not because of the delusions of Anita Sarkeesian who sees methodical sexism and misogony pretty much everywhere (just watch her older vids). Ther's a video where she complains that she feels left out of the geek sphere because of the obnoxious porn ads on an illegal bittorrent website. In another video she argues that an ad for Bayonetta in a Tokyo subway encourages sexual assault. I'm sorry but i can't take such shenanigans serious.

Quote from Jetsetlemming

I posted about the specific content in my first post in this thread, but overall I don't feel the need to carefully break down and point out everything I agree with in a video that, overall, I agree with. I'm asking the people who DON'T agree with it to be more specific in their criticisms, because their comments so far have come off as dismissive, which has rubbed people (not just me, not just here) the wrong way.

That's all you wrote:

Quote from Jetsetlemming

Personally, I liked the video. It was well constructed and provided a lot of evidence for her points, and lots of examples of the trope being examined.

Stop bullshitting. You and campaignjunkie contributed zero to the discussion except for passive aggressive remarks abaout other users. But especialy your opinions would have been valuable to the discussion since you are on Anita's side of the argument.

Jetsetlemming i don't see your detailed critique of her video either. So stop stomping on others for not doing it.

Please feel free to explain why you agree with her that Peaches hurts young girls for instance. And for your own credibility sake stop generalising and make blanket statements yourself. You make yourself look like a fool insinuating these things while being one of the prime examples in this thread.

Personaly i don't think the video is worth my time to watch it again and critique it in detail because a) i don't disagree with the message that tropes are a problem (tho for different reasons as i explained) b) it's too shallow for an indepth analysis (i mean come on she doesn't provide any data or evidence for her claims it's just her opinions). Also this is not her first video and will not be her last so it's fair enough to discuss both her agenda and the tropes in a broader fashion.

I think women already have the rights and opportunities to get into the industry. It's on them to show interest for the jobs, to practice their skills and to educate themself like we all do. I don't think any sane person would oppose that.

But when people suggest quotas for women in this industry to fix "the problem" that annoys me.

It's like as if there is discrimination in the hiring process that needs to be fixed but i don't think that's the case. I think any game company would gladly welcome qualified females to improve diversity in their work force. But the reality is that way more young males find an interest in doing game stuff. So anything that aims at destroying job opportunities for those who actualy show interest, skill and initiative all by themselfes is bound to create hostility.

This is all getting a bit off topic or maybe not because that feminist issues get project on pretty much everything that happens in the world is one of the main reasons people have a problem with Anitas agenda. It's not really about tropes in video games or is it?

Quote from Jetsetlemming

You know, if you don't want to be interpreted as a misogynist you should probably pretend to respect women enough to actually argue with them instead of dismissing them out of hand.

Don't insinuate things. Such foul rhetoric is, you know, disrespectful.

And please go back and read the thread again because valid criticisms and comments regarding the topic have been made by multiple users which wouldn't be the case if it was dismissed out of hand.

Eh i don't identify myself with the youtube troll crowd. There are hateful, vile comments below pretty much every youtube video not just feminist videos. These people will write whatever it takes to rile up others. And these people are very loud so it's easy to mistake their bile for majority opinion.

The Amazing Atheist made a video about it. It's not exactly one of his best but he makes some valid points in regard to this phenomenon and how to deal with it.

I like your view Wail. It's similar to mine. My opinion is that equality isn't about erradicating these tropes and stereotypes. That's where i think the feminist agenda is misguided and hence gets strong counter reactions for. Rather in a world of freedom and equality ther's enough room for all kinds of depictions especially in art and media which should be free of any form of dogma. So the focus should be on creating and offering more variation not to replace one monochromatic scheme with another. The tropes in videogames (which includes the male tropes) mostly annoy me because they are so prevalent not because they exist.

Personaly i have no problem playing a female or black or homesexual char in a game. It's all roleplaying and fun to me. For other people it seems more important that the char is a representation of themself. This seems not just be the case with the young male cod crowd that the industry gathers to but also for Anita and her followers ironically.

What's interesting is to take a look at a game where players have a lot of freedom to create their own characters. I play Eve Online which has a great character editor so i can share my observations from there. What you find is that male and female characters seem distributed pretty equaly even tho the majority of players is probably males. And what's more is that many chars are not designed for cool or beautiful looks by the players but for individuality. I would like to see Anita analyze the social behaviour patterns in such a game because i think it's very different from what she perceives playing singleplayer games or first person shooters. I have a female main and a black secondary char and i can honestly say that i can count the instances of sexist or racist comments on one hand.

Quote from Rick_D

I thought being in the industry we would see exactly the kind of shit that happens on a day to day basis. Marketing and demographics over-rule common sense and morals, and those demographics aren't even accurate. Just because YOU think white males aged 20 make up 90% of the people playing games, and that those kids only like shooting arabs, doesn't make it true.

Personally I am getting tired of video games, I don't want fucking action shoved down my throat every second of every hour. I want good games that feature stories, arcs, progression. I want to feel that same "wow" I feel when I put down a good book, or finish watching a great movie.

That's the part of her argument that i agree with and from which perspective it should be discussed. It's an creative and buisness issue. I'm getting sick and tired of the same old tropes and stereotypes aswell.

What i don't believe is that anyone sits in a studio and decides "hey lets put this helpless but beautiful princess in the game so we can demean and objectivy women". These decissions are not made with malicious intend. It's purely a lack of creativity and unwillingness to risk new ideas. Ignorance perhaps but that's hardly the same as sexism or misogyny which is implied by Anita and other feminists as the core of the problem.

But then to be fair with some of the filth she gets as response to her work how can she not believe to be surrounded by sexist mysogynist gamers? It's a bit like someone who's clinically paranoid actualy getting stalked.

Quote from Campaignjunkie

When the straight white men of MapCore unite to talk about how sexism / homophobia / racism isn't real and isn't worth talking about, especially in the game industry, you're all sending a message to other MapCore community members -- don't post, don't participate, your feelings aren't valid.

I think that's okay in EOT because that's the special space for it; I avoid EOT and I'm fine with it.

But if you do it out here, in public, keep in mind that people are going to see this, and you're making someone like me feel less welcome here. What, so I'm going to have to start avoiding the "Gaming Discussion" forums too? I wonder how the women of MapCore feel?

I'm not saying "censor" your sexist opinions; feel as sexist as you want. But just know that there's a chilling effect on others you're intimidating with that attitude. A consequence. And really, you end up looking tactless.

Don't worry, no one is going to speak-up and complain because they feel intimidated. They'll just leave.

I'm not sure your post is for real because it sounds like straight copypasta from a feminist blog.

But since this isn't EOT i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

First off i think it's presumtuous that "straight white males" arn't supposed to express an opinion on racism, homophobia etc. that doesn't comply 100% withyour own. People are individuals no matter their skin color or sexual orientation and everybody has the freedom to express an opinion. It has no bearing on the validity or invalidity of an opinion.

The next thing is you put things in peoples mouth or make wild assumptions about everyone. Please point me to "sexism / homophobia / racism isn't real" comments in this thread. I think it's very real which makes it the more dubious that she spents 160k$ on badly researched videos about a pretty trivial subject in the grand scheme of things and still keeps asking for donations mind you. Ther's 1000x more sexism in the comment sections about her stuff then in the video games she talks about. And those arn't even remotely close to the worst abuse that women and homosexuals can experience irl. But hey who gives a shit about setting priorities, right?

Then what really irks me is how arbitrary the word sexism gets thrown around as a knockout argument, completely warping the meaning of it in the process just to make other peole look bad. Instead of attacking users why not make a constructive post about why you think she's right with all her accusations and assumptions? Then we can discuss the validity of it in an equaly constructive manner.

This is so trivial. I mean she has a good point about the tropes being overused. But is this really a feminist issue and not just simply a creative one? Meanwhile women in Afghanistan or Africa or wherever get their lady bits chopped off or get murdered because they want to get an education.

Is there such a thing as fluffy feel good feminism? Because her topics sure feel like it.

First Thief was way too blocky to define what it's "supposed to look like" not to mention the theme of the maps was all over the place to begin with. Remember there were egyptian tombs, jungle tree houses, gaudy magic house levels and whatnot. Towards the third Thief ther's plenty of gothic architecture. And Victorian style fits Thief's steampunk theme pretty well too imo because it's basicly gothic and romanesque revival mixed with steel and rivets.

Quote from dux

And thief was never "gothic" - it was steampunk mixed with medieval.

God damnit.

But gothic = medieval. Perhaps you think of this:

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