Tropes vs Women in Video Games

Quote from Jetsetlemming

I posted about the specific content in my first post in this thread, but overall I don't feel the need to carefully break down and point out everything I agree with in a video that, overall, I agree with. I'm asking the people who DON'T agree with it to be more specific in their criticisms, because their comments so far have come off as dismissive, which has rubbed people (not just me, not just here) the wrong way.

That's all you wrote:

Quote from Jetsetlemming

Personally, I liked the video. It was well constructed and provided a lot of evidence for her points, and lots of examples of the trope being examined.

Stop bullshitting. You and campaignjunkie contributed zero to the discussion except for passive aggressive remarks abaout other users. But especialy your opinions would have been valuable to the discussion since you are on Anita's side of the argument.

Quote from Jetsetlemming

There's a whole lot of talking in this thread, and I've yet to see a single real critique of the video. People saying "Oh it's boring, it's wrong, it's just opinion," but never actually citing anything directly, or arguing anything. You know, if you don't want to be interpreted as a misogynist you should probably pretend to respect women enough to actually argue with them instead of dismissing them out of hand.

Personally, I liked the video. It was well constructed and provided a lot of evidence for her points, and lots of examples of the trope being examined.

What I find interesting here is that you don't take this as a condemnation of the videos themselves. Anita doesn't offer any new ideas or insights, she is merely recounting ubiquitous feminist positions that one need not have even taken a course in feminism to be familiar with or understand. While I can point to numerous elements of the video that I think are objectionable, the reality is that the major flaws in Anita's video are flaws that are inherited from the arguments of other feminist figures. The onus is really on Anita to prove her points, but this video doesn't do that -- It's effective only if you assume that the points Anita makes are automatically and exclusively valid. I'm still waiting on her to provide any actual evidence that the damsel in distress trope is harmful, rather than just making throwaway references to "Objectification" and assuming that using jargon is inherently convincing.

Quote from Thrik

I think a lot of the criticism about donations stems from the fact that this video series got an unprecedented level of funding. I've had discussions elsewhere about how Kickstarter itself could handle this phenomenon as it's sure to happen again.

A lot of the criticism stems from the fact that Anita (or members of her staff) were posting her Kickstarter on 4Chan to specifically rile up internet trolls, then playing the victim card to the mainstream news outlets.

Jetsetlemming, stop stirring.

This is a forum for artists and designers, not the open university. Be thankful this topic isnt just "post tits" and move on.

Quote from Thrik

(excluding retarded comments like d3's).

Yeah, nevermind the two comments I made after I actually watched the video all the way through, sheesh!

I haven't really followed her Kickstarter or anything before that video, so I got to see it without having any pre-existing opinions on her. I honestly don't see what's so bad about her video, at least not to the extent that warrants some of the very fiery posts here. Did anyone here actually pledge to her kickstarter? The series aren't even finished and it's too early to start judging her for how she has/has not used the money. I've browsed these forums for 3 years now, and I've never seen this degree of passion about any topic before. Why do you care so much?

You can't just attribute Nintendo's overuse of damsel in distress-trope to ignorance or lack of creativity. They're grown adults and they know perfectly well what they're doing. No, they're not "made with malicious intend". That's not what she's saying at all. She's criticizing that they don't give a shit. Nintendo uses Peach/Zelda as damsel in distress-plot devices for gameplay-purposes and they don't care about the sexist repercussions of it. Her video is an attempt to make developers more aware of these things.

The issue with the Fox/Krystal example isn't that they changed the sex of the protagonist, but that they did such a complete reversal of her role from a respectable character into a sexualized trophy.

D3: Your comment was retarded, though.

Quote from Steppenwolf

I think women already have the rights and opportunities to get into the industry. It's on them to show interest for the jobs, to practice their skills and to educate themself like we all do. I don't think any sane person would oppose that.

I think it’s comparable to the sciences and engineering, which are not so much a gentlemen’s club but a sausage fest. There’s nothing particularly exclusionary going on here, in fact I’m sure they’d love to have more diversity too, it’s just a field comparatively less women are interested in.

A feminist friend has told me the lack of interest is itself evidence of sexism. Gender is cultural and therefore the disinterest from women must have a discriminatory root-cause somewhere. But, if you really want to go that route, gaming has been stigmatised as something for male losers until very recently and that’s also going to be a factor in it growing inwardly as a male dominated pastime as well... Though I think this debate is unproductive and don't buy gender is a cultural construct anyway.

Quote from Steppenwolf

But when people suggest quotas for women in this industry to fix "the problem" that annoys me.

Agreed, I don’t like hiring quotas because it is actual discrimination introduced to fix perceived discrimination.

Quote from Steppenwolf

This is all getting a bit off topic or maybe not because that feminist issues get project on pretty much everything that happens in the world is one of the main reasons people have a problem with Anitas agenda. It's not really about tropes in video games or is it?

Well, she doesn't try to hide her agenda. It’s no surprise to see feminism latch hold of a subculture and demand change. But that doesn't mean their complaints are invalid. This is why I just tried to focus on her evidence and conclusions.

Quote from Jetsetlemming

You mean your post on the first page that Chimeray mistook for reposting a troll?

ok so you've basically not read the thread. good job.

Tropes vs Women Vs Mapcore lmao

Quote from csyver

You can't just attribute Nintendo's overuse of damsel in distress-trope to ignorance or lack of creativity. They're grown adults and they know perfectly well what they're doing. No, they're not "made with malicious intend". That's not what she's saying at all. She's criticizing that they don't give a shit. Nintendo uses Peach/Zelda as damsel in distress-plot devices for gameplay-purposes and they don't care about the sexist repercussions of it. Her video is an attempt to make developers more aware of these things.

You are basicly repeating her claims without further reflecting on them. There are no proven sexist repercussions in the Peaches character. That's what Anita claims and doesn't provide any evidence for, not even anecdotes. So why should Nintendo care? They should care because the trope is overused not because of the delusions of Anita Sarkeesian who sees methodical sexism and misogony pretty much everywhere (just watch her older vids). Ther's a video where she complains that she feels left out of the geek sphere because of the obnoxious porn ads on an illegal bittorrent website. In another video she argues that an ad for Bayonetta in a Tokyo subway encourages sexual assault. I'm sorry but i can't take such shenanigans serious.

Quote from Steppenwolf

You are basicly repeating her claims without further reflecting on them. There are no proven sexist repercussions in the Peaches character. That's what Anita claims and doesn't provide any evidence for, not even anecdotes. So why should Nintendo care? They should care because the trope is overused not because of the delusions of Anita Sarkeesian who sees methodical sexism and misogony pretty much everywhere (just watch her older vids). Ther's a video where she complains that she feels left out of the geek sphere because of the obnoxious porn ads on an illegal bittorrent website. In another video she argues that an ad for Bayonetta in a Tokyo subway encourages sexual assault. I'm sorry but i can't take such shenanigans serious.

What exactly is it you want me to provide evidence for? That Peach is a damsel in distress stereotype? or whether this stereotype is harmful/sexist?

i think he meant it's whether it's harmful.

Quote from csyver

or whether this stereotype is harmful/sexist?

This. Tho i care more about the harmful part. What's considered sexist i think ther's a big semantic gap between what i would define as such and what a dogmatic feminist defines as sexist.

Quote from Kinky

Jetsetlemming, stop stirring.

This is a forum for artists and designers, not the open university. Be thankful this topic isnt just "post tits" and move on.

I'm not really one to back down about something I care about, like equality. I expect much more from artists and designers than "post tits"

Quote from csyver

I haven't really followed her Kickstarter or anything before that video, so I got to see it without having any pre-existing opinions on her. I honestly don't see what's so bad about her video, at least not to the extent that warrants some of the very fiery posts here. Did anyone here actually pledge to her kickstarter? The series aren't even finished and it's too early to start judging her for how she has/has not used the money. I've browsed these forums for 3 years now, and I've never seen this degree of passion about any topic before. Why do you care so much?

You can't just attribute Nintendo's overuse of damsel in distress-trope to ignorance or lack of creativity. They're grown adults and they know perfectly well what they're doing. No, they're not "made with malicious intend". That's not what she's saying at all. She's criticizing that they don't give a shit. Nintendo uses Peach/Zelda as damsel in distress-plot devices for gameplay-purposes and they don't care about the sexist repercussions of it. Her video is an attempt to make developers more aware of these things.

The issue with the Fox/Krystal example isn't that they changed the sex of the protagonist, but that they did such a complete reversal of her role from a respectable character into a sexualized trophy.

Agreed 100%.

Quote from Taylor

Though I think this debate is unproductive and don't buy gender is a cultural construct anyway.

I'm sorry you have this difficulty, but regardless of what you might thing about gender, it is a social construct. That aspect of gender is part of its very definition. Perhaps you're confusing it with sex, which is the inherent biological difference between male and female creatures? Boy/man/girl/woman/etc are cultural roles we fulfill, typically informed by how we are treated and raised based on our born gender. A number of people defy this role put on us after birth, either by choice or by instinctual compulsion, such as gender dysphoria (the psychological stress caused by one's biological sex differing from one's personal gender affiliation). Gender is a spectrum, not a binary difference, with extreme poles on either end (Mister Universe vs Phyllis Schlafly, perhaps), and many people in between. Women in modern American society are commonly expected to essentially fulfill both traditional gender roles; "Masculine" aspects like ambition, pride, strength, and athleticism, while also adhering to "Feminine" aspects like politeness, deference, cleanliness, and a focus on aesthetics.

Quote from Jetsetlemming

I'm not really one to back down about something I care about, like equality. I expect much more from artists and designers than "post tits"

See in my mind the whole issue isn't about equality at all. Equality isn't to take away from men the things they enjoy like depictions of sexy women with big wobbling breasts (and stigmatizing them for that they like such things). Especialy not in a free flowing medium like art. To try and suppress this for political reasons is an attack on freedom.

To me equality is about equal rights and opportunities, nothing more and nothing less, which i support 100% for both genders and everything inbetween.

Quote from Jetsetlemming

I'm sorry you have this difficulty, but regardless of what you might thing about gender, it is a social construct. That aspect of gender is part of its very definition.

You’re right, I tripped over my words. I don’t agree that innate differences begin and end with the genitals, but certainly gender is socially and culturally generated. I’m going to steer clear of this semantics minefield because it’s not something I’m equipped to deal with, however I will try and expand this past the half a sentence you quoted. Do you agree with her point that because women are disinterested in science, computing, engineering and video games this implies in itself an active discrimination?

at this point i find it hard to believe someone would be so fanatic for something like being from opposite gender, to the point of making snide remarks towards other people for thinking otherwise. fucking master ruseman'd/10

I had a talk with my parents today. It started with my father repeating an oldschool casualy sexist joke that he heard on the street the other day. Everybody laughed but i told him that such jokes are not really cool anymore in todays society and that he as an older man saying such things is basicaly the equivalent of old people making casualy racist remarks when he was a bit younger. Both mom and dad agreed.

Then i told my mom, who is an avid Nintendo DS player, that ther's a woman on the internet who made a video about how Princess Peaches is harmful to young girls and that she gets lots of support and hate for it. My mom looked very baffled and first she asked "Why, because she flies around with an umbrella?". And i said no that's a different game and explained the Damsel in Distress trope to her and that it's about Mario. It made my mom laugh out loud (not kidding you) and she said she thinks it's utter nonsense.

On a different note i watched a video from girlwriteswhat today who made a good analogy imo about how the feminists attempt to control what men are allowed to see and enjoy is basicly like removing the burka from womens bodies and strapping it in front of mens eyes instead.

Quote from Taylor

I'm sorry you have this difficulty, but regardless of what you might thing about gender, it is a social construct. That aspect of gender is part of its very definition.

You’re right, I tripped over my words. I don’t agree that innate differences begin and end with the genitals, but certainly gender is socially and culturally generated. I’m going to steer clear of this semantics minefield because it’s not something I’m equipped to deal with, however I will try and expand this past the half a sentence you quoted. Do you agree with her point that because women are disinterested in science, computing, engineering and video games this implies in itself an active discrimination?

Yes. Girls are raised from birth to fulfill a feminine role, which is not one of computer science or engineering. Women are absolutely capable of programming and designing things, but are told their entire lives that they must be pretty and focus on aesthetics and other people and be nice and kind and polite and respectful and defer to others and be a wife and be a mom and be a caretaker. This is what those mean ole feminists are talking about when they talk about the Patriarchy. Do you think that most nurses are women and most doctors are men because of an innate biological difference? Do you attribute anything whatsoever except the differences in reproductive role to innate biological differences which are universal per-gender? If so, how do you square people who aren't "normal" male or female on the biological spectrum, such as those with XYY, Adrenal Insensitivity or Hyperactivity, Hermaphroditus, etc?

To Steppenwolf: Mainstream feminism doesn't want to take away your porn, your ridiculous fantasy wobbly women, or your damsels in distress. The problem is their over representation and domination of the depictions of women in general, not their very existence.

Quote from Rick_D

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Love this lady. Pointing out that Peach is playable in 46 games is hellaciously damning figure, and goes to show that cherry-picking your examples (e.g. "core games") is a great way to lie by omission.

I also really like that she brings up the basic, obvious, and necessary discussion about how technology is a driving factor in the stories we can tell with games. The vast majority of games that are made deal primarily with physical conflict, whether that's fighting, shooting guns, driving a car, running an obstacle course, whatever. Games are very good at depicting physical conflict and not-so-good at narrative or emotional conflict. To be clear here, when I say they are not-so-good at narrative, I'm referring to the fact that the vast majority of virtually any game's content typically consists of "game mechanics" which are rules set down beforehand that can govern the nigh-infinite gameplay space, while story is typically non-interactive and generated directly and painstakingly by humans rather than execution of rules within the computer.

I am actually currently working on an indie RPG and our dialogue tree for the introductory area is almost 50 pages long -- That's just for the introduction. There is a real challenge narrative-driven games face as choice and non-linearity are givens in the interactive medium of games, but both of these are, to certain extent, at odds with the idea of a coherent narrative. The technology for games to adapt narrative on the fly to player choice is not there yet and won't be there until we get much more sophisticated procedural and AI-like tools.

Quote from Jetsetlemming

I'm sorry you have this difficulty, but regardless of what you might thing about gender, it is a social construct. That aspect of gender is part of its very definition.

You’re right, I tripped over my words. I don’t agree that innate differences begin and end with the genitals, but certainly gender is socially and culturally generated. I’m going to steer clear of this semantics minefield because it’s not something I’m equipped to deal with, however I will try and expand this past the half a sentence you quoted. Do you agree with her point that because women are disinterested in science, computing, engineering and video games this implies in itself an active discrimination?

Yes. Girls are raised from birth to fulfill a feminine role, which is not one of computer science or engineering. Women are absolutely capable of programming and designing things, but are told their entire lives that they must be pretty and focus on aesthetics and other people and be nice and kind and polite and respectful and defer to others and be a wife and be a mom and be a caretaker. This is what those mean ole feminists are talking about when they talk about the Patriarchy. Do you think that most nurses are women and most doctors are men because of an innate biological difference? Do you attribute anything whatsoever except the differences in reproductive role to innate biological differences which are universal per-gender? If so, how do you square people who aren't "normal" male or female on the biological spectrum, such as those with XYY, Adrenal Insensitivity or Hyperactivity, Hermaphroditus, etc?

To Steppenwolf: Mainstream feminism doesn't want to take away your porn, your ridiculous fantasy wobbly women, or your damsels in distress. The problem is their over representation and domination of the depictions of women in general, not their very existence.

Of course some of this observed difference in interest may be due to sexism / gender roles -- But how much? Can we break it down more specifically? Is biology 50% of the difference, the other 50% being gender roles? 75/25? 99/1? Is it a good mindset to assume the answer, even part of the answer, before we can support it?

It is as if we have phenomena where, when an object is dropped from a height, it falls to the ground. The prevailing theory among one group is that the falling behavior is because of these evil spirits, "Thetans" that we can be free of if we atone and give them money, status, and power. Later scientific research reveals that the falling behavior is merely caused by a universal force we identify as gravity. The Thetan-group's argument backtracks then -- We know why things fall, it's gravity, but gravity doesn't explain why a feather falls differently than an apple, so that difference must be caused by "Thetans." Later scientific research reveals that drag causes these different behaviors in falling. Again, the Thetan-group posits that we know why things fall and how they fall, but that we can't explain why some objects seem heavier than others after they fall, so that must be caused by "Thetans." And once again, scientific research tells us about the concept of mass which explains the perception of weight.

Our scientific knowledge of biology is still vastly incomplete, but it's actually rather shocking to me how woefully uninformed or misinformed popular culture notions are on the subject ...