Interview with Garry on Shacknews

im sure hes talented and put a lot of work into it and such, but it's just kind of a crapshack where people do stupid bullshit, which im sure is fun for some, for five minutes, but that's about it. sorry.

Quote from KungFuSquirrel

Does anyone even remember the stuff randomnine did back in the day? Canned Tuna? Turbo, the snark racing mod?

BUT OF COURSE!

God I loved Turbo Taking my snark into the half-pipe like maps was great fun and with others even better.

I think a better comparison than player counts is who releases vs who doesn't. Yeah, sure, maybe the player counts aren't great, but they've gotten farther than most projects. That it's getting into late 2007, about 3 years past the release of HL2, and Insurgency just released as the first major mod release after 3-4 years of working isn't a good thing. How many projects have gone under in that same stretch of time that might have seen life in smaller, scaled-back, and/or incremental form?

Also keep in mind given that Insurgency just came out within the last month; it'll take a lot of hard work and dedication on the part of the team to maintain, let alone increase those numbers. While I hope you guys will be successful, it's entirely possible you may find in a few months to a year's time that INS is in a similar position as some of these other mods in the player base department.

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And every generation is going to make it less and less feasible for "release early release often" to be a sane approach to game developement.

I think the opposite is true for mod development. The commitment required is skyrocketing beyond what most people can reasonably manage in a part-time situation. Small iterative projects are the way to go if you want to see the light of day without having to throw a huge team at it, which I also think is a terrible trend in modding.

In retrospect, I regret ever aiming for retail/professional standard with NW. We went too big too fast and couldn't hold it in the long run. Worst part is, if we'd just stuck to the initial plan I bet we could have had a pretty damn solid release in a much more reasonable timeframe. That was on a HL mod, too; that was easymode compared to what's out there now. Unless our tools take a huge jump in the near future (which they should for the sake of everyone who's ever had to work in a bloated dev team), it's just not reasonable and I think it really betrays the roots of what made mods mods. Steppen, that you accented a point by saying "just "mods"" is a very telling statement of how drastically things have changed in the wake of CS and DOD's success.

Wow. As I was reading that thread right after Frie posted it I absolutely didn't except it to turn into such a war. I noticed that lots of people around here bitch about other mods, why all the hate? It's hard enough to mod today and you all should encourage each other. The Doom3 community and mods help each other out alot either (yeah I know, it's way smaller).

I think it comes down to how the "iterative method" is approached.

You really need a strong design and plan there.

A first release doesn't have to be shitty at all (like CS or DOD have been). There is one thing that will keep players intrested in your mod, gameplay. If the gameplay is correct you won't need a ton of maps at first, also you won't need to have different player models for each class if you can seperate them by just a different texture. Sadly people nowadays tend not to try mods, that don't look ueber hot. Which means that the few assets used in the early version should be of high quality to prove that more good work can be excepted. Of course then, you need to keep it updated fast enough.

Quote from KungFuSquirrel

In retrospect, I regret ever aiming for retail/professional standard with NW

Excuse me, but what is "NW"?

Quote from KungFuSquirrel

Steppen, that you accented a point by saying "just "mods"" is a very telling statement of how drastically things have changed in the wake of CS and DOD's success.

Well I'm not interested in making toys like Garry, thats for sure

In order to be a major mod you have to impress. In order to impress you have to have the whole package especially when in an atmosphere like Source everything is competetive and other mods are semi-pro, that takes alot of time. Mods like Dystopia have tried to add these impressive things on but its failed, because people aren't going to wait for your tenth patch to see if you've got good graphics yet.

Valve could solve the whole dilemma by allowing patching through Steam, but until that day release early release often died with Source unless you're making a gimmick game, as far as I'm concerned.

edit: Step is quite right

I wrote "mod" because Total Conversions like BMS, ND, Insurgency etc are more then just mods imo. They are basicaly new games from scratch without their own engine license.

And yea its a bit sad that it took so long and so many promising projects never saw the light of day.

Insurgency really was on the limits of what is doable with a amateur team. All people who worked/work on similar complex mods will agree with me.

I dont see a future for Total Conversions personaly with the next generation of engines being even more complex then source. At least we will see no TC's anymore that can compete with commercial games quality wise.

Quote from Steppenwolf

I dont see a future for Total Conversions personaly with the next generation of engines being even more complex then source. At least we will see no TC's anymore that can compete with commercial games quality wise.

I agree with you there.

The sheer amount of things to consider here for a TC is giving me headaches.

MrBarracuda:

NW is Nightwatch I guess.

Quote from FMPONE

In order to be a major mod you have to impress. In order to impress you have to have the whole package

I guess INS will deliver a more interesting gameplay and atmosphere with patches to complete that package?

Today's mods are too fixiated on graphics for my taste and I dunno, maybe you should build on good gameplay and not on graphics. I'd play that Golden Eye mod if it had some interesting gameplay/good DM even if it looks crappy.

Quote from MrBaracuda

I guess INS will deliver a more interesting gameplay and atmosphere with patches to complete that package?

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INS is the number one free source mod so I doubt the INS team is too worried

I don't even think UE3 will have any real TC's.

Source will probably be the last engine to really pull it off

Yeah we are adding mini games like golf and gas thrusters which you can attach to people. Really awesome ideas, and fully do-able

Is it me or does it seem to be the INS devs on one side and everyone else on the other

Either way, sure INS has the most player count at the moment of the free HL2 mods. It also had what 5k players release week, I havn't seen it above 1k for the last week or so whenever I check.

All newly released mods (and retail games) start with a peak as everyone downloads it and plays, we'll all be able to better judge this in a month when you have an established base of players.

Or not. Time will tell.

Quote from ginger_lord

Is it me or does it seem to be the INS devs on one side and everyone else on the other Either way, sure INS has the most player count at the moment of the free HL2 mods. It also had what 5k players release week, I havn't seen it above 1k for the last week or so whenever I check.

All newly released mods (and retail games) start with a peak as everyone downloads it and plays, we'll all be able to better judge this in a month when you have an established base of players.

Or not. Time will tell.

I'm not an INS dev for some time now but its not really INS developers more like people working on an ambitious TC. Black Mesa, ND, FF all apply, but there aren't as many members registered as their are INS devs on mapcore

And you are 100% correct about the peak, but as it stands INS has been the most successful, if we're running a stopwatch to see how long the player peak has lasted and its strengths. But we may well see it fall, I don't know if I would root for that though, all it means is that every Source mod is going to enjoy a little success and than fucking die hardcore, which doesn't seem like a great reward.

Thats certainly been the prevailing trend.

Quote from ginger_lord

Either way, sure INS has the most player count at the moment of the free HL2 mods. It also had what 5k players release week, I havn't seen it above 1k for the last week or so whenever I check.

Got a link to a stats page?

http://steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=stats&cc=US

Mrbaracuda the atmosphere in ins is top notch imo but i agree that the gameplay feels a bit awkward in the current version. But im pretty sure we can fix this. All what the game needs to be really enjoyable gameplay wise is easier feature access, better hints of what to do (like on screen objective indicators) and firefights that last longer before you die.

I enjoyed ins more in the internal beta tests because people knew what to do and the firefights were longer and more immersive due to a bug that fucked with the weapon accuracy . Now on public people play it like tdm and that just costs most of the fun + the fact that guns are more deadly then they ever were in betas. So im pretty positive we can make the game more enjoyable because it was before.

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If you want to develop a game that will make people not only pop in for the looks but also stay in for the fun, then go for the iterative approach. That is my last word on this...for tonight at least

I Agree The interactive approach is very valid to me, and as a mod autor is my reference. However "release soon" doesn't mean "release full of bugs", I remark that because one thing doesn't involve the other. In fact Valve's wiki strongly recommend to test again and again until there aren't serious bugs at least.

This is the right approach to me because of many reasons: mod teams usually changes members continuously, if development takes too much time that is going to be like a snow ball: more and more delays. Internal testing is good for bug catching, but I don't think it can tell you anything about acceptance between players. There is also the problem of ideas getting old or copied by other people, well, I think there are much more.

Some people can say, hey look at Insurgency, they took 5 years to release but now are on the top. Yes sure, but take a look at other similar mods, some of them probably never'll release.

I think Zombie Master got the old HL1 mod spirit, simple and innovative, focused in gameplay rather than graphics (there is some really ugly shit, I must say), the released relatively soon AFAIK. The key for me is: if you release soon, don't release with broken features, crashes and that stuff that makes players run away and don't return, and of course, don't release clones of other games.

HL2 mod scene could be summarized like this: one of the biggest mods (or the biggest) is a remake of an old game, and it's not the only.

I'd actually disagree R_Yell, on the point of the TC's not releasing or possibly not being able to release.

Insurgency is out

Fortress Forever will release with no doubt in my mind.

Nuclear Dawn will also release, I'm fully confident and so is the team there

infact the only mod I think is in doubt of releasing is Black Mesa, but only because of the legacy of NW and the difficulty in making SP content. But again, excellent team and the only obstacle is just alot of mapping required to recreate HL1 so it may well do just fine for itself.

BM:S will certainly be the last of the mods to release, so the TC strategy will hinge on its fate, I suppose.

Quote from Steppenwolf

Mrbaracuda the atmosphere in ins is top notch imo but i agree that the gameplay feels a bit awkward in the current version. But im pretty sure we can fix this.

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Atmosphere: Tone or mood conveyed to the reader or spectator in a story, novel, poem or play by the effective use of character, setting, or description.

INS looks nice, no doubt. It even looks like somewhere in an Arab country, but it barely feels like it. So I wouldn't say the atmosphere is top notch. Too many elements are missing like I said in the other INS thread, such as voice commands in their respective language, environmental sounds (someone said they are really quiet), maybe some interesting background story for each map like in RO and more interesting objectives and objectives that can be pushed in both directions, again, like in RO

Right now it's more or less a realistic DoD:S without flags marking objectives, progessive spawns and reenforcements in a desert setting that might remind you of Iraq when you see that Hussein statue.

Quote from Steppenwolf

All what the game needs to be really enjoyable gameplay wise is easier feature access, better hints of what to do (like on screen objective indicators)

I'd actually like it more if the "commander gives orders" system is kept. The maps aren't too big and don't have an abundance of routes, plus you got the minimap when the map loads, so I don't think there should be more hints of what to do as of right now. What features would need easier access other than the annoying "scroll-through" command/voice command menu?

Quote from Steppenwolf

and firefights that last longer before you die.

There's pros and cons to that. I like it the way it is, since you have to be careful. Although it's a little meh when you keep getting shot from someone you cannot see.

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I'd actually disagree R_Yell, on the point of the TC's not releasing or possibly not being able to release.

Yes, probably most of them will be able to release, but well, the point isn't really the release stage. In the end I don't even care if they are able to attract lot of people at the beginning. The success factor isn't decided by player number, at least for me, the question here is if they are able to grow or they'll follow the path of commercial games: from high to low. Mod are supposed to be the opposite.

BTW don't forget that mod with halo stuff and dinosaurs I suppose that could be released too, but who is going to care after so much time (except if they come with something killer).