BBFC rejects Manhunt 2

There is a big difference between a film that depicts a rapist and a game that puts you in the shoes of one and encourages/obligates you to do the deed.

If you can't see why, then you really are ridiculous.

Nope, sorry. That certainly hasn't been the case of a murder has it?

Welcome to sane society, where a game that encourages you to kill hundreds maybe thousands maybe millions of people is seen as more palatable than one that has you rape them. Because that makes alot of sense.

I mean if you really feel that way you might want to take a stronger look at your own justice system, not to mention every justice system in the world where murder is seen as the penultimate offense.

Quote from Thrik

I'm kind of torn to be honest. On the one hand I don't think the world will be any worse off with a game that basically capitalises upon stalking and murdering (as opposed to other games which generally have some kind of motivation for doing so you can relate to)

Did you actually play the first game? It had a pretty deep story with lots of outside influences from movies and books and such. It was never just "kill this guy with a blunt object" game, you would only think that if you played the very first level which was essentially a tutorial and showed you the basics of the gameplay.

I found it a thoroughly enjoyable game and I haven't stalked or killed anybody since playing the game over 4 or 5 years ago.

Games like "Barbie: Horsey Pony Madness 5" are more likely to make me want to kill someone.

It's just another lash-out against video games because some people that are crazy in the first place at one point or another played a video game then went and did something crazy X amount of time later. It's bullshit and lame imho.

Adults can choose to lube each other up and fuck every hole in each others body with any household or garden object but we can't sit in front of a tv screen and butcher some pixels after working all day for a system that dictates how we spend our lives. Fuckers.

well video games are seen as entertainment, but if you start promoting rape as entertainment it's a bit of a blurred line, but as PONEY says - why is murder different to rape, both destroy a life, yet one is acceptable in a game, and one is not?

In some countries girls as young as 8 are married and popping out kids, but in some countries that is seen as a hideous crime. It's subjective and cultural. And I think we in the West have had enough experience murdering people in wars and civilian life that to ban a game because it might encourage one or two people to kill some other people is ludicrous, offensive even.

As far as I know, all the new consoles are region-less anyway. So just import it if you care for it, there’s no reason not to. Rockstar do have a chance to appeal, if it goes through they’re going to make some obscene money after this publicity.

I can’t say I really agree with their methods these days, okay the Grand Theft Auto stuff was ludicrous, but then there’s Bully just to incite the press, and this game that’s taboo for the sake of it. They’re painting the negative picture of the games industry the mass media wants to see. I’d hope if this stays out the stores they’ll approach things with a bit more subtlety in future.

Most of the new consoles are Taylor (or at least somewhat), but the two platforms that Manhunt 2 is for - PS2 and Wii - are both region locked. That's irrelevant though, as region locking only differentiates between regions rather than countries, and so you could import a copy from a country in the same region as you that gets the game published. I'm sure plenty of people will do just that, but I doubt it's gonna be a "hit" in the UK if you can't walk into a store and buy a copy.

Don't steer this thread into a discussion of whether or not games can have behavioural effects on people Rick because that's not what I'm trying to say at all. I don't believe games have the capacity to turn a perfectly normal person into a murderer or a rapists, no matter when in life they're exposed to it. It'd take additional variables to do that, such as being brainwashed with one -- but that's a completely different subject.

All the BBFC have done is look at Manhunt 2 and decided it's too much for the general audience, it's something that should not be encouraged to be sold in this culture, and it's something that is generally considered too extreme for the vast majority of people -- many of whom might not realise before buying it.

The same thing has happened to various films and other mediums over the years. It's nothing new, even in the games industry. While I'm sure Jack Thompson and his friends will be all over this like HIV on a prostitute, I doubt they would have banned this game unless it was severely distasteful.

But as I've said numerous times in this thread now, banning games like Manhunt 2 simply cannot be justified when films like SAW are allowed onto the market. The better approach would be to better educate people about what these ratings actually mean -- especially parents.

At the moment many people don't realise how extreme the content in a game can be and they don't approach them with the same "Okay, this is an 18 so it's going to be either really explicit or really violent; I'd better read about it first" attitude that they do with films.

I feel similar as Thrik, this topic really has me torn as well and the thread shows how far you can take it when you talk about banning games or other media in general.

On the one hand, I believe in individual freedom and that everyone should decide for his own on what do and on what not to do, as long as this does not affect any others. Let's stick to the example at hand - a video game that displays virtual violence and rewards the player for doing it. Nobody gets hurt, except for digital characters on screen.

On the other hand, I also believe in moral and cultural values...to some extent at least. I am not very religious and it seems values that used to be taught by religion, are gaining less and less importance in enlightened, western societies. So since it's not the church anymore, that tells us what's good and what's wrong for us, what's good and what's bad, the state has mostly taken up this responsibility by introducing laws. And you know what - I'd rather have officials have an eye on what's put out there than nobody.

Because I think one thing all of us agree here is that these kind of games don't belong into kid's hands - 18+. The problem is, that in many cases they end up exactly there - because many retailers don't care and because many parents don't care. So let's be realistic - if a game is put out there, chances are that kids will play it too, no matter what the age restriction is.

I guess what I'm shooting at is (no pun intended) that if nobody draws the line of what you can put in a game, or any other media and people buy it - there will be more and more of such games being made, eventually becoming more and more violent. I wouldn't call the recent increase in violent crimes among teenagers in Germany a global trend, and I am very reluctant to say it is the media's fault, but maybe it has a little influence on it?

I am more worried about what the future is going to bring than what the current situation is, if people keep making games while having no sense for responsibility whatsoever. This does not apply to all developers mind you, but a fair amount.

Speaking as a game developer, hell even first-person-shooter developer, I am probably part of the problem, but at least in Crysis you don't just kill people for killing's sake. There is a higher goal - even if very clichee - you are the hero, you stand for the good and you defend your friends and rest of humanity from the evil - fictional scifi setting put asside. I guess it's also a matter of perspective, but for now that's enough to calm my consciousness.

This got way too long, I'm tired and gonna shut up now. I hope you could somehow follow my string of thoughts and got some sense out of it. As I said - it is a very complex but interesting topic and I'm sure it will be cause for controvesy for many years to come

I make the differentiation between murder and rape because one largely remains a cultural taboo in the UK while the other does not. In the artistic sense, of course; naturally both are unacceptable on a real-life level.

But really, I've said myself that you can't really justify games being banned exactly because of films like Saw. I'm not sure why you're basically using the same things I said to make an opposing point.

And sure, in an ideal world kids wouldn't play these games. The problem is that they do because of the widespread lack of education about what games contain, so even if you personally parent your children brilliantly you can guarantee at least one of their friends will have parents who just blindly buy them any 18+ game they ask for.

It's like most parents wouldn't dream of letting their kids watch an 18+ film, or at least not without thoroughly reviewing it themselves and then deciding afterwards to what degree it coincides with their own morals regarding what a child should see. This same line of consideration simply doesn't exist with games for most parents, which is the most major problem in my eyes.

As I said earlier, the banning of a game by the same authority that reviews films being thrown all over the media might go some way towards making people realise that games aren't just 8-bit pieces of shit anymore that're incapable of evoking strong emotion or portraying terrible things. Not taking them seriously remains a huge problem.

And as I also said earlier, I personally don't care if Manhunt 2 is used as a tool to achieve this particular agenda. It serves Rockstar right for trying so hard to foster controversy (although nowhere near as much as Running With Scissors).

Quote from Thrik

And as I also said earlier, I personally don't care if Manhunt 2 is used as a tool to achieve this particular agenda. It serves Rockstar right for trying so hard to foster controversy (although nowhere near as much as Running With Scissors).

That's funny, because Manhunt 2 is banned and Postal 2 isn't. If we're banning people for being controversial, now.

I'm pretty sure that because that guy killed that other guy and everyone thought it was Manhunt, which made that guys parents campaign for tighter restrictions on games, they might've perhaps peer pressured the BBFC into not having this game released? Like how all those songs got banned on the radio after 9/11.

I'm pretty sure also that the parents just want someone to blame ("I'm very disappointed. This is rubbing salt into the wounds in the month we will be marking the anniversary of Stefan's death.", quote from the guys dad, there), they don't seem to accept that the courts AND the police both declared that Manhunt had nothing to do with it.

Thats a bit of a crazy theory, but it's just what I think.

The BBFC should be there to declare what's appropriate for whom, not keep older people from watching/playing because it's innapropriate for younger people, nor is it there to satisfy mad mourning parents on a mission.

Yeah, in that case didn't it turn out that the 14-year-old kid killed was the one that owned the game, not the kid who killed him?

It completely dropped off the American news radar when that came about.

It normally is spacer, which would make me think that Manhunt 2 is considerably more disturbing that most of us believe.

It's incredibly rarely that the BBFC gets involved with any kind of outright banning, usually only going so far as to require content modifications (not that you hear about these too often). The fact that we have such a loose limit on what's seen across all entertainment mediums is proof of this.

I mean the possibility is there for the BBFC to just be banning it purely to satisfy a political cause, but I'd be inclined to believe not personally. It's not exactly unlikely that Rockstar could have turned up the heat following their string of controversies, but then gotten bitten by their boldness.

I'm starting to repeat myself a bit now so I think I'll keep away from this thread for a while.

Like others here, I'm kinda split about this as well. However part of me (the lazy and naive part) really don't care. I mean I'd definitely have to see what exactly they're basing the ban on to be able to justify it in any way, however a country like the UK really should be ahead enough to at least give people the option, even if it was bumped to 18+ or something like they're doing in the US.

Besides, Rockstar knows they're playing with fire when they make these kind of games and part of me kinda likes that for once they actually got burned a bit.

Quote from Thrik

I mean the possibility is there for the BBFC to just be banning it purely to satisfy a political cause, but I'd be inclined to believe not personally. It's not exactly unlikely that Rockstar could have turned up the heat following their string of controversies, but then gotten bitten by their boldness.

Well if it's not that, it'd the BBFC muscling in, letting Rockstar know who's boss, and that's not what they're supposed to do.

i didnt read the thread yet but i'm going to give my 2c anyways. gonna read it when i get home later.

i think games like this shouldn't be made, for now. the media isn't mature enough, the people aren't mature enough, and even the game developers aren't mature enough. call me a pussy but i'd avoid designing a game like that at all costs. not that i wouldn't play it anyway, when i was 8 i though it was uber cool to play violent games like mortal kombat.

but you know what i find really sickening?

the fact that violence is more acceptable than sex. there's a movie called lucía y el sexo (sex and lucia) which features both sex and violence. but the sex is as explicit as it gets without being pr0n. yeah, that means titties and wilkinses and pussies in full screen, but no gynaecological camera though, it's all really beautiful. and the violent scenes are built with visual omission of the fact, so you don't really see it, you just get it by other clues.

and guess what? it was rated 12 in france and nc-17 in usa. and they made a usa-r version with all the sex scenes cut, and they're really essential to the story. and people in imdb are all over it, calling it semi-porn garbage and wondering why the director showed an erect penis on screen, but didn't show blood and gore.

now dude, thats really SCREWED UP. i just don't get it. sex can be such a beautiful thing, i really miss it in games. i've been exposed to sex since i was really young and i think that was essential in making me a more mature person. i'm not a pervert and i'm sure the average french guy isn't too (btw, im not french). so, whats the problem? so, imo, rating systems are kinda broken.

anyways, go and rent lucia and the sex NOW. its an awesome movie, specially if you're into filmmaking, storytelling and hot spanish ladies

fyi i dont actually agree with the decision to ban the game (i've never even played a manhunt game) all i meant was that the decision seemed to have at least had some rational thought put into it. Usually all you hear is 'so and so is terrible, you drive around shooting people for points etc' but at least here they beleived there was a significant lack of meaning or justification behind the rampant killing to balance out the pure acts of wantum violence. However this may not in fact be true as a bbc new report on this (i know the mainstream media is hardly the place to get real info on this) mentioned that in the game you are imprisoned, ala saw, by someone and then upon your escape seek to get revenge on those who captured you. Sounds like emotional justification to me.

I liked the first one (I bought it before it was banned). Yes it was gruesome and unsettling; but it was supposed to be. As far as I'm concerned, it added to the play experience. I don't think for a moment that Manhunt (1 or 2) is something that should receive a low rating; it is intended for a 'mature' audience.

Though what this means for Australia is that it's likely that Manhunt 2 will be banned (like Manhunt is already). I say this because we don't have a R18+ rating for games. MA15+ is as high as it goes.

And this makes me a sad panda.