Team Fortress 2 still alive :o

    Quote from Defrag

    Considering the dev cycle is now 7 years or so(ish?) it's pretty fair to say they have been likely superseded by numerous other games (battlefield series etc) in the area they were trying to occupy. I personally see this as something as a cop out.

    7 years? It's not like they were making a game engine or a sequel to some best selling game within that time period... no, those kind of things should never take priority, that's just silly.

    Quote from User Err0r

    7 years? It's not like they were making a game engine or a sequel to some best selling game within that time period... no, those kind of things should never take priority, that's just silly.

    Actually, most of the engine was already built. There's a reason the Half Life 1 engine is collectively called "Gold Source". Also, Thief 3 took about 3 years to make, and that turned out to be an awesome game. I would say the same about Deus Ex: Invisible War, developed alongside but that was a crap sequel to the best selling game (I think it was?) of 2000.

    Quote from User Err0r

    7 years? It's not like they were making a game engine or a sequel to some best selling game within that time period... no, those kind of things should never take priority, that's just silly.

    Whatever, man. My point is simply that what TF2 was going to be has now been and gone and the current version of TF2 looks to be a throwback to traditional TF... after 7 years I think I have justification to be disappointed. I don't really care if Valve have released awesome games in the interim, they have the financing and manpower to work in several projects at once so I don't see that as justification for the direction TF2 has taken. I'm not going to say much more or criticise what I can't yet play or see, but the fact that it is being bundled as part of episode 2 speaks for itself. It'll probably be awesome, but I'm thinking not seven-years-in-the-making-with-far-reaching-and-revolutionary-concepts awesome.

    Yeah I have to admit, bundling it with Episode 2 does seem a bit strange. I mean considering the gravity of the title and the fact it was originally to be a standalone game, it seems like it's been demoted somewhat.

    Hopefully the essentially free price won't be a reflection of its quality, but you have to wonder.

    Then again, TFC was free and that was excellent, so there's still plenty of hope. I think any and all expectations of it being much more than a slightly evolved game of traditional TFC must be discarded though.

    Heh, with sniper shots that make you explode into gibs and conc jumping and all that this style makes way more sense than that old constipated look.

    Yeah. You could tell when they implemented those new models in TFC that they were heading in a more serious direction, and it just didn't feel right. All the classes looked really similar and people new to the game just couldn't tell from looking at them what role was what.

    With TF2 they've clearly gone back to what they did with the original TFC models, which was to totally play up to the stereotypes of the roles. I mean, take one look at any of those characters and you know right away exactly what they are in pretty much every case. Could you really say the same about the models below if you hadn't ever played TFC before?

    [Blocked Image: http://serve.ryansgoblog.com/images/demoman.gif][Blocked Image: http://serve.ryansgoblog.com/images/scout.gif][Blocked Image: http://serve.ryansgoblog.com/images/soldier.gif]

    There's no doubt about it: the new style that TF2 will feature totally suits the game. I just hope it doesn't frighten off the masses, with them being reality craving bum bandits.

    Yeah the old TFC models were awesome. The new ones were technically better in terms of aesthetics etc (increased polycount) but they didn't "do" it for me at all. The old ones were perfect. Slightly cartoony, stereotyped etc. They didn't look like a professional army; they looked like a rag-tag bunch of mercenary lunatics.

    Friechamp:

    What will be different?

    Well, we've blended quite a few features from older TF mods. Trimping (the way you gain height when jumping on slopes in quake engine games) is in, as is a few other things (we've got a few surprises up our sleeve).

    There's obviously some new stuff, too. E.g. The spy can sabotage sentry guns and turn them on the enemy team. There's a few new spy disguise and stealth tricks, too. The scout has a new ability to make him more useful in avoiding enemies. The sniper can shoot enemies with a radio tag, letting their team track the enemy's progress as he moves around.

    The main changes we've made is in the interface and interactive teaching of players. We've revised the interface where it was clunky in previous TF versions so it's now streamlined and transparent. Radial menus are available to carry out various commands (such as aiming / dismantling a sentry gun, disguising as spy) according to the situation. Best of all, a lot of the weapons and abilities have been brought into the weapon slots. To build a sentry, players can now select slot 4 as engy then they get a nice 'ghost' helper appearing. The sentry gun, for example, will constantly update to show the player how it will look when built. Pressing fire will then build it. Same deal for the detpack. Players can deploy detpacks by using slot 6 then pressing fire to deploy.

    We've introduced a hint system (think BF2) that allows players to get information based on context sensitive actions. Players can also recall past hints using a hotkey if they didn't catch it the first time round. This works for both map hints and gameplay hints (for example, if a player's sentry becomes damaged, a hint will tell the player how to repair it). At the moment we're populating the game with these and trying to strike a balance between "DUH" and useful.

    Furthermore, we have an experienced bot programmer who has allowed us to introduce bot-based training modes. This is the final piece in the jigsaw and it's something that we may have to scrap for the beta and work on in the background so it's ready for release. We're planning on having hazard-course styled training using a bot voiced by someone for the training. Players will be able to pick up the basics or practice specific things by undergoing the training, but it will be optional. We will be tying the training maps into the hint system, too (so the hints can tell a player that a training map exists to help master certain things). The idea being that players who get confused or can't grasp the principles can take it one step at a time if they so choose, or they can just get stuck in. One of the major problems that TF has presented in the past is simply that the interface is clunky, there's too many unexplained nuances and ... players get totally overawed. Some of my friends have tried TFC/ETF in the past, and most of them quit because they couldn't understand what the hell is going on.

    So .. we're basically trying to make it as accessible as possible. Will it work? I don't know. I hope so. We have to try

    Defrag I think that to survive the arrival of TF2, you and your team really need to come up with a concise lists of points that make Fortress Forever different. I've no doubt that it'll be an excellent mod, but you need to communicate why to the players as early as possible.

    I mean up until now I'd imagine that most of those following your mod have done so because it is of course a new Team Fortress game, but now there's an official contender on the scene they'll naturally be more drawn to that. Having features that sound downright enticing is what you need. Shit like those radio tags and turning sentries on enemies is what people must hear!

    Perhaps you could come up with a short bullet point list of between five and ten things that sum up why it's worth checking out and stick it on the front page of the site or something. I mean, if someone wants to sum up to their friends why they should check out FF, they can't use a three paragraph explanation like you just posted. They need some quick, sharp incentives — especially now that "It's Team Fortress on Source" holds little weight.

    You never know, maybe the two can exist peacefully.

    I don't get why people complain (or bring up... quit reminding valve they could get away with selling it as a seperate product) about it being bundled with EP2. Do they prefer paying $20 twice for seperate games instead of $20 once for two bundled games?

    edit: i dont mean like what thrik said. his comment just reminded me of the people bitching about the episodic content while discussing tf2. Like this from shacknews: "And it's going to make some people (like me) wish that I could buy it without episode two..."

    If TF2 were standalone, it'd probably be $20 anyways. So those that would buy TF2 regardless of EP2, are getting a free EP2 with their purchase. They're not paying any more. If they don't want the episodic content, they don't have to play/install it (I'm assuming they'll be seperate games on the steam games screen, given that cs:s was supposed to be hl2's multiplayer, and those are seperate).

    Nobody is complaining about the value (I'll be buying for sure), they are passing comment on the fact that a game with a 7 year dev cycle ending up as a cut price extra in an episodic bundle (and in turn, what this means for the game's scope and content).

    First off, let me say that this new art style's milkshake is bringing all the boys to the yard. Hotness.

    Second, this makes me happy that somebody at Valve understood the value of the TF franchise. It's not supposed to be a hyper realistic military ops game. It's camp. You've got a spy with pills for grenades. You've got engineers building automatic turrets in hallways. You've got someguy with a fucking chaingun on his hip. It's campy fun that buildings on classic stereotypes, so I'm glad they're playing it up.

    As for FF, I think it will still have a niche market. It has one thing going for it that TF2 won't: the possibility of innovation. TF2, when it comes out, will essentially be locked down. It might get a new map every few months, but the rules and gameplay won't change much. FF provides an outlet for innovation. It has the ability to add new weapons, abilities, classes, and most importantly: custom maps. Part of CS and DoD's success was the fact that the community could actually change the game by getting new levels in. If somebody make a really badass TF2 map, it will be just that. Maybe some servers will give it some play time, but it will never be drafted into official rotation. That same level ported over to FF stands a chance at going into an official rotation into a mod. I think there is value there simply from the vantage point that level designers can keep it alive be co-developing for TF2 and FF. So I hope the FF is able to key in on that. Valve is a lumbering giant. You can't take it down, but you can stay alive with the ability to be nimble and quick changing.

    But still, TF2 just made me buy Ep2.

    Hmm, with all that new stuff defrag you'll probably scare away some TFC grognards. They do sound like a lot of fun tho

    And are the original creators of TF still working at valve, and if they do what hand do they have in this iteration of TF2?

    Quote from Polaris

    Hmm, with all that new stuff defrag you'll probably scare away some TFC grognards. They do sound like a lot of fun tho

    If we scare away some old hands, so be it. We primarily need new gamers to make the mod a success -- if the TF oldies return and dominate the newbies, then we will have a lot of problems to contend with. I played TFC for 5 and a half years, and I'll be damned if I'm playing a verbatim source port for the next five. I never do understand why some people will settle for the exact same thing, much less demand it! Change is good. Look at CS: People may whine like bitches every time something is tweaked, but they're still playing it. I would imagine the numbers will be starting to tail off these days due to the focus on CS:S, but it just goes to show you need change to keep people interested. We won't shy away from making big changes where required. We have some fairly outlandish and cool ideas for the future, too (as obviously we haven't been able to get everything into the first version due to time restraints).

    Oh and http://www.fortress-forever.com New update. We're aiming for a private beta in August.

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