Open season for level design positions?

Quote from Furyo

Bottom line, if these newbies aren't any good, they'll be gone at the end of the project. Permanent positions are only given to those that can do something.

Much like the Gearbox COGs program. We have about a 50% success rate, those that don't seem to have the drive or determination just aren't brought on fulltime; Others just decide that they want to continue with school or that maybe Professional LD is not what they want to do.

This leads me to:

Quote from kleinluka

What I find problematic with a lot of the newbies that are hired straight of school with not even modding experience is that a lot of them just seem to work in games "because it's cool". They have next to no intention of improving or learning new things let alone do an acceptable and good job in the position they are holding. This is a big problem. But to big companies people are just numbers so things like that slip underneath the radar very quickly.

Exactly. I have seen some portfolios of students at some of these schools and while some might have a really good design methodology, others just don't seem in it at all and they see it as a way to make money. I don't get these schools since they teach you the what and the how, but not the why. You learn from doing actual mod work and having communities critique you, not by doing some job to just get an 'A'. I can understand the schools for terms programming, but for Art it is much better to just go to an art school (at least what I think, but hey I am a level designer!).

Even when you get hired the methods you used while doing mods and what not are completely changed. You might lose a lot of the freedom, at the beginning, you had when you were modding but as you grow with the company you begin to understand more of their own game design process. This may continue until you get to design major parts of the game or even a game itself!

And since now I am just spewing thoughts out of my head and not really putting them in coherent sentences I shall leave this.

Seacrest Out!

just take a look at FEAR or condemned. the level design (art & gameplay) is rather boring and unspectacular for such big AAA titles.

I'm just about to graduate from a game development course (Defrag is in the same course, year below), and I must say that a lot of people don't seem to have much interest in gaming and game development. Its not a statement that applies to everybody obviously - there are people on the course that eat, sleep and breathe games - but a worrying amount of people clearly don't. Most of them have dropped out over the 4 years, either for lack of ability of lack of interest (with a couple being hired and abandoning the course in favour of employment). Going to a game dev course doesn't mean you are ready to get a job in the industry, I can confirm that much.

I just got hired and am scared shitless that I won't be able to live up to the role, but at the same time I'm really excited about learning the ropes and working with a bunch of like minded folks. I've not had the most successful mod experience (only "successful" mod I've been a part of was Adrenaline Gamer, and my work on that was pretty much entirely independant) but I'm certainly not a newcomer to the scene, and I feel I've proven my desire to not only build levels, but have solid technical knowledge and push the boat out a bit with creativity. I guess the next few months will tell if I've been picked up too early!

From what I've seen, there certainly are a lot of companies looking for level design talent at the moment, but the same can be said for most areas.

Reno, what course are you taking... and where? (if you don't mind me asking).

I'm studying for a BSc. Honours in Computer Games Technology at the University of Abertay in Dundee, Scotland. It was the first games development course in the UK I believe, and seems to be (or at least was when I applied to it) one of the most respected ones. There are a few others worth looking at these days though - Marque Pierre from these forums is at Tayside doing a more design oriented course I think and from what I know of it it seems pretty good.

My course is pretty much exclusively technical though - its not got much of anything to do with level design and the like.

So I might have a vauge chance of getting level design job? Scary thought...

hmmm should i change the course of my life and become a level maker?

Quote from ReNo

I'm just about to graduate from a game development course (Defrag is in the same course, year below), and I must say that a lot of people don't seem to have much interest in gaming and game development. Its not a statement that applies to everybody obviously - there are people on the course that eat, sleep and breathe games - but a worrying amount of people clearly don't. Most of them have dropped out over the 4 years, either for lack of ability of lack of interest (with a couple being hired and abandoning the course in favour of employment). Going to a game dev course doesn't mean you are ready to get a job in the industry, I can confirm that much.I just got hired and am scared shitless that I won't be able to live up to the role, but at the same time I'm really excited about learning the ropes and working with a bunch of like minded folks. I've not had the most successful mod experience (only "successful" mod I've been a part of was Adrenaline Gamer, and my work on that was pretty much entirely independant) but I'm certainly not a newcomer to the scene, and I feel I've proven my desire to not only build levels, but have solid technical knowledge and push the boat out a bit with creativity. I guess the next few months will tell if I've been picked up too early!

From what I've seen, there certainly are a lot of companies looking for level design talent at the moment, but the same can be said for most areas.

I think (even with what I said above) if you have the drive, determination, and passion for games and designing them, then that is all you need. Schools are not evil in my book (despite the fact I made them sound like that above), it is just, like you said, so many people don't have the passion that they just create crap.

I chose my degree on the basis that it didn't narrow down my options (like a Games Design degree would) so I'm doing BA Hons Multimedia Design & Digital Animation which is a good degree. We go from basic low poly models in Cinema4D to high poly models in XSI (taught by Roger Rosa, if you know a bit about XSI you may have heard of him, maybe not) as well as 2D web design, interactivity programs and games and promo CD's for companys.

The modelling and animation side is quite good, we have a section that concrentrates on getting things realistic first (scratches, dirt etc), then the next makes its realistic and optimised for low and high poly envrionments. Then you do scenes etc.

Now we've started animations, the first stage was just to animate it, the next one was to make the animation have emotion and the last one is to make it animate, have emotion and be pretty.

It goes through it all nicely explaining everything and at the end of it I have plenty of paths to go down, film, broadcasting, music, games etc.

Quote from Mojo

Much like the Gearbox COGs program. We have about a 50% success rate, those that don't seem to have the drive or determination just aren't brought on fulltime; Others just decide that they want to continue with school or that maybe Professional LD is not what they want to do.

exactly,

but unfortunatly big companies, dont have the same policy, they just hire,hire, hire sometimes it seems like everyones welcome, seriously I had a dude working with me who's previous work was security agent, he didnt have anything with games besides the ocisional time he played them, the guy was incharge of the leveldesign, making the most insane dicisions, and when i commented him on perhaps how to improve it he prety much wanted to beat me up outside, now this is a very extreme example,but it is true, did the guy get fired? nope relocated to a diffrent map because they simply need all the people.

like i said before not every noob is bad we've all been a noob once, its just the ones that dont give a rat shit about what theyre doing, and unfortunalty their numbers are growing.

My fallback plan would probably be starting my own business, or something similar. I originally planned on trying to become a programmer - but I don't have time to teach myself a language right now, so for now that's not a viable option for me.

So if I can't get a job in the industry I'd be fine running my own business, most likely a record store. I love my music.

Quote from IR

seriously I had a dude working with me who's previous work was security agent, he didnt have anything with games besides the ocisional time he played them, the guy was incharge of the leveldesign, making the most insane dicisions, and when i commented him on perhaps how to improve it he prety much wanted to beat me up outside, now this is a very extreme example,but it is true, did the guy get fired? nope relocated to a diffrent map because they simply need all the people.

But how does someone get hired if they have no skills that qualify? How does someone just slip by with interviews and resume screenings. Unless he lied...

yeah i kinda see where hes going with this topic . I was given an art test to see how well i can handle somthing . i know people who just went for interviews and got hired without doing a proper art test. I guess we shall see how well they do.

I do hate knowing that there are some newbs out there that have little or no experience out there that get into the industry . It kind or makes everyone else look like a joke because they have worked hard to get to where they are at.

In that case, how do you guys suggest we raise ourselves above their levels? (I suppsoe that could be taken literally).

How can the people who work hard and have passion overtake the the people who don't care about the profession? Being a level designer would be a dream job for me, and I'm currently trying to work up a respectable portfolio.

Do the good designer at least get a better paycheck?

I can't believe what I'm hearing...

From what I see, your paycheck is indexed on your experience, not necessarily on your expertise. Meaning X number of years of experience will get you X dollars and not a dollar less. Then if you're actually good, you have the power because you're likely to have offers from more than just one company, in which case you can start to hold auctions But that's just the way it goes absolutely everywhere, I'm sure you know that.

As for putting ourselves above the guys that don't care, it's easy enough, show that you do care more. Take every opportunity you have to show your interest in things, walk around the offices and ask questions, learn from the best, and continue working on mods at home. Then put up your own work on your desktop so people walking by may see it, and interact with everyone. It may be harsh, but the people that are remembered are the ones that were talked about, for better or worse. And to achieve that, you need to be proactive.

If you really care about your thing it will show. You can tell by the amount of time someone puts in, how much he makes, how polished it is, and so on..setting yourself apart from the mass isnt too hard

However getting noticed is. You can be awesome but if some randoom noob with his stupid cubic gimmick map manages to get more attention than you at a site he might actualy get hired and not you. And that does happen often.

Someones asked "how come someone who sucks so much manages to get trough the interviews and so on". The people on top and even a lot of lead artists and so on have zero idea of what level design is about and what is important. They cant judge them right OR there is such shortage of people they hire anyone (not true for large companies tho). Ive seen people getting hired simply because they had a map of the month (or the year) at planetunreal. They get hired because a manager or whoever sees it and says "fuck that guy has a map of the month, he must be good so hire him". While often the sole reason he has a month of the month is because there simply werent any other reviews in that period or the PU admins are so lazy they only update the thing once a year with some random map they come across.

Yet they are hired, and not the one who really tries.

Those people often arent ready yet. Situation: In week 1 random noob X releases map A, gets success in week 2 for various of reasons (like being one of the first to release a level), flames everyone who says something in week 3 (cause hey, if he has that much success all others suck), comes asking me a basic mapping question in week 4 (how do i move the pivot pivot) and then gets hired in week 5.

And that really happened. Thats just not right.

I'm on a BA(Hons) in Computer and Video Games. In my 3rd and final year, and there is a big mix of people coming out of it. Some are slackers and found it so hard to get the work set done that they no longer want to get into the industry, which to me is good, as if they did get in they'd get crushed even more by the work load etc.

Then there are people like myself who have always wanted to get into games since the first picked up an editor from a game. I've worked on several mods, some not too successful some quite.

However I don't know if its just me, but the UK seems a harder place to get a job than the USA. There are less companies, and they all want incredable work. Fair enough, but they all want "gritty realisum" and being a dumbass I chose a "cartoony fantasy" style for my final year project. At the time of choosing this wasn't the case, and now I feel I can't secure myself a job.

Still working on my portfolio like a nutter, I want to do level design, but for my project brief I've had to cover more areas, Character Design, Animation, Textures and a little Level Design. After Graduation I'll be needing to spend a whole lot of time making gritty levels.

If I can get an interview I can show them that I am hard working, motivated, passionate, but with a portfolio that doesn't specify in one area, and with one style I've yet to get one of those :roll: