the new cartoon thread

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4735216.stm

Here’s the latest religious group to be offended over free speech.

Quote

Catholic church leaders in New Zealand are urging a boycott of a broadcaster planning to screen an “ugly and tasteless” episode of South Park. The episode of the US animation, called Bloody Mary, depicts a bleeding statue of the Virgin Mary. …

New Zealand’s Catholic bishops signed a letter on Sunday urging the country’s 500,000 Catholics to boycott C4 and its sister station TV3, which recently apologised for showing the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.

They asked for the ban to extend to companies that advertise their products on the commercial network.

“Making known the extent of our offence might give them pause to consider that press freedom is not a licence to incite intolerance or to promote hated or derision based on religion, race or gender,” the letter said.

Pretty much the identical argument Postman has been using to justify the rioting over the Muhammad cartoons, isn’t it? Of course, the only difference here is that these Catholics somehow managed to avoid rioting, burning cars, firebombing embassies, and killing each other. Funny how that works, isn’t it?

Quote from neotic

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4735216.stmPretty much the identical argument Postman has been using to justify the rioting over the Muhammad cartoons, isn’t it? Of course, the only difference here is that these Catholics somehow managed to avoid rioting, burning cars, firebombing embassies, and killing each other. Funny how that works, isn’t it?

People in New Zealand are also a fair bit better off and better educated than your average Middle Easterner.

Quote from RD

Ill post it later because i have to go to sleep now. To get up damn early.

Cool, waiting on that if you can find it.

Quote from RD

Umm what, Do you live here? Thats not why they wear shirts or reprint it. When your fellow countrymen are SENTENCED TO DEATH you back them up.

That's sure as hell what it looked like from across the pond and I can guarantee that the folks in the ME and in your own countries didn't think it was all that funny or noble either.

Quote from RD

Like i said before we have more muslims living here than you have in all your states combined. Nobody in Europe is doing any violence against muslims, we dont hate them, were not rioting...

That's all well and good, but you still antagonized them.

Quote from RD

...were not xenophobes and were not racist, we dont go out to ridicule them.

Cartoon?

Quote from RD

It does actually have everything to do with free speech.

Only in that they can do it because free speech exists, not because of how much they LOVE free speech. That's a crucial difference here.

Quote from RD

Like i also said before, ppl have already been killed over criticising Islam in Europe, many times. Even more ppl have been sentenced to death. It has evrything to do with freedom that they back up and condemn their brothers who go wild.

Then punish those that do those horrible acts and stop painting yourselves as innocent and like this happened in a void without a cause.

Quote from RD

They protested peacefully, threatening us with another 911, 77 and madrid, openly threatening to behead all that insult Islam. This again has everything to do with freedom of speech and press in Europe. I dont see how anything could have more to do with it.

Don't they have a freedom to speak?

Quote from The Postman

People in New Zealand are also a fair bit better off and better educated than your average Middle Easterner.

The rest of the world has to tip toe around broken glass for Islam and cater to it at every possible chance. If the worst the world media can do is print a satirical cartoon then that is tolerance! The double standard here is the fact that the rest of the world is suppose to be tolerant of the intolerant. Doing so just solidifies their intolerance and ignorance. To crack the extremes of this ideology, well, have to crack some eggs to make an omelet – maybe they’ll recognize their unrealistic expectations and change for the better.

Just because Catholics or New Zealanders are more tolerant means blasphemy is at least permissible? Or that since Muslims are less tolerant that rioting is justified or at least permissible? If you allow the less tolerant people to remain less tolerant because they are less tolerant then the rest of the world better start learning Arabic because appeasement is the only course if action within that mind set. We’d hate to upset the intolerant and ignorant because they are.

Quote from neotic

The rest of the world has to tip toe around broken glass for Islam and cater to it at every possible chance.

No, hardly. However it can't be surprised if people get angry and shit happens because of their actions. That's my argument here.

Quote from neotic

The double standard here is the fact that the rest of the world is suppose to be tolerant of the intolerant.

That's essentially the double-edged sword of freedom of speech. You have everyone's voices, not just the ones you like.

Quote from neotic

Doing so just solidifies their intolerance and ignorance. To crack the extremes of this ideology, well, have to crack some eggs to make an omelet – maybe they’ll recognize their unrealistic expectations and change for the better.

There has to be a more constructive way than inciting riots via insulting cartoons.

Quote from neotic

Just because Catholics or New Zealanders are more tolerant means blasphemy is at least permissible?

It's not permissable, that's the thing. What I'm saying here is that there's a reason why it's happening, not a reasonable reason. Also, Catholics weren't always so tolerant. The Crusades, the Inquisition, every witch hunt ever done. Religions mellow over time.

Quote from neotic

Or that since Muslims are less tolerant that rioting is justified or at least permissible? If you allow the less tolerant people to remain less tolerant because they are less tolerant then the rest of the world better start learning Arabic because appeasement is the only course if action within that mind set. We’d hate to upset the intolerant and ignorant because they are.

Hardly. You just have to educate the populace against that form of extremism. Defeating intolerance takes education, not stupid cartoons. That cartoon was just a childish jab and every reprint of it only stoked the fire.

it's fine for anyone to protest, on anything

it is NEVER fine for what they are doing right now, unless we where physically harming them, trying to kill them off in a genocide fashion they have no right to do what they are doing right now.

TOLERANCE IS NOT RESPECT

do not get them mixed up.

peace is not respecting each other

peace is tolerating each other

i see constant jesus bashing everywhere, constant atheist/other bashing from christians as well. it is a rare chance there is ever any hate crimes out of them EVER. even in the bible belt when i lived in Arkansas, where there was a church on every corner I could wear a shirt making fun of God and usually be talked shit to but probably never be killed.

if you are justifying what they are doing is right, you are stupid, very stupid. if you are saying what the western world is doing is wrong, that is your perception. it is not right or wrong, it's media reporting. that stupid reverand italian guy or whatever was clearly making fun of them yes, but that doesn't mean he deserves to die.

you guys should move to america, if you want to know what tolerance is all about - you won't find it more calm any where else in the world. and that is no lie, america is the most diverse country on the planet, our hate crimes are insanely low for the amount of different cultures and beliefs here.

we have SATANISTS here, and they are public EVERYWHERE, you don't see the christians burning them at the stake anymore.

WHY YOU SAY?

because they FORCED the christians to ACCEPT IT by saying THEY WHERE NOT AFRAID TO SAY/DO WHAT THEY WANT. Witches are everywhere, pagans all over the place. christians used to hunt them religiously with a striking force, not anymore.

forcing tolerance is the only way to go, the thing the muslim world needs to realize is that the world is changing and we are all becomming one. It is going to happen, they are just now getting in the spotlight since world war 2, just now getting technology, just now getting the ability to see the rest of the world and they are getting all ass hurt from it.

it has happened to every country and culture, it's now the muslims turn to feel the pain. and it is not every muslim, just the extremist fuck tards.

just weighing in:

I think it's cool this forum is here for people to discuss things they are very passionate about.

I think it's a lot less cool people are being extremely condescending and insulting towards each other. To some degree I understand that it comes with the territory but unabashadly flaming users burns my grits a bit.

I'm just throwing in my opinion of what I see without choosing a side. This forum gets a lot of use and I like that. I'm also not here to lock the topic or edit posts or anything (nor should any of the mods really for a difference of opinion.)

It's the internet. It's a forum. You guys agreeing to something will not bring about a solution, it will only bring about an agreement (and as already mentioned it's the INTERNET so there's no agreeing anyway.)

Discuss onward.

I concur zilla. Threads like this in our boards (insurgency) always give us headaches.

My final argument is basically this. The problem in the Middle East trascends race or religion. It's a problem that effects all failed states that have high populations of impoverished, desperate, and poorly educated people. Religion, as a whole, doesn't help these people in the way that it helps people in the developed nations. Instead it acts like a catalyst in finding scapegoats and goading on people with an unrealistic zeal.

So how do we fix this problem? For one these nations need to have better infrastructure. That means power, water, gas, and sewage available to people in these countries. The problems faced by most of these people stem from the frustration of a subsistance or hard life. Needing an outlet to vent those angers on can be sated by making sure through slow methodical change of infrastructure their lives become more comfortable. Comfortable people are happy people. After this seemingly inconsequential change is made and maintained only then can these people begin to modernize and globalize their economies and begin to soothe the extremist masses by giving them no pool of angry peasants to wield like an axe.

This however, comes to a conundrum. The change must occur inside the countries themselves and also requires a secular government more free from corruption. The change must be put forth by the people in that country and not from western nations(although non-governmental bodies couldn't hurt to help aid in other areas before and during the change). This is a slow and deliberate process that can't be forced from outside and will probably not be reached in our lifetimes. There are already success stories though. The UAE and Turkey are both excellent examples of largely Islamic nations that have made incredible strides to modernize and globalize their economies and peoples. There is hope for change out there, but it will be slow in coming.

Again, this isn't a problem with Islam itself, nor Islamics in general. It is a problem faced by all impoverished, desperate people in need of a reason why things are so bad. Only by slow, deliberate, internal change can they remedy themselves in the longterm.

The Cartoon

My final thought on this matter is essentially this. My arguments this entire time have been an explanation of the situation, not a defense of the Muslim reaction nor ills commited by the Islamic extremists in the past. It's been a critical look at how one insulting act has been spun as a free speech rallying cry of the west, when in truth it had nothing to do with that. It existed because free speech exists, but it was not celebrating that right in and of itself. It was deliberately and insensitively attacking Islam as a whole instead of the extremists who stain its reputation.

However, the EU and the nations involved in the further spread of this cartoon and its legacy have to take some responsibility for their actions. These things don't happen in a void. Much in the same way that if I wore an anti-Bush teeshirt into a Mesquite, Texas country-western bar I'd probably get my ass handed to me. That's not to say that all people who supported Bush are violent hicks, but it does say that my attempt at expression certainly wasn't appreciated, regardless of how much free speech I used in wearing that shirt. I'm responsible for that action though. I made the decision, I offended them, and I got my ass beat for stirring the pot.

That's pretty much the nuts and bolts of it.

Quote from RD

There was no need for you to explain anything. On page one of this entire debate i wrote: "I dont think anybody on here is surprised they are offended so lets just get that over with."

But you spend the next 20 pages explaining it.

No you didn't. I just went and rechecked. You didn't. Please point me out where you said this in any way shape or form on page one.

Quote from RD

Imagine this: 911 just happened, and i am writing 20 pages of explaining why they did it, to make you realise that you should have been more careful in 1985, you should have known better, you got your ass kicked and you are responsible.Am i really merely explaining it and not talking it right? I used your exact words.

You're explaining it and yes, there were reasons for 9/11. The action was horrible, and not at all justified, but there was a pathos for it happening. It didn't spawn in a void. That being said, 9/11 was not justified, just as these riots and threats of death are not justified.

Quote from RD

You have drawings about 911, paintings, pictures, probably some with the word ALLAH on it. The only reason you got away with that is because you were so completely screwed over on 911 and you payed them back, they really are too busy in Iraq and Afghanistan. But you didnt get away with it. It will happen again and again.They screamed Allah on those planes, they screamed Allah in the attacks here. They used Allah and their prophet. There is a toon of a bomb and the prophet. Its not a childish attack, it is portraying how extremists use Islam. It is as childish as your 911 drawings with a cartoon bubble containing ALLAH AKBAR.

That's the difference between posting on a small insular forums website...

Quote from RD

This isnt us walking in a redneck bar and getting beaten up. This is a regular bar that they storm into and kill us, while we are drawing toons. Toons that they would never have seen if it wasnt for that imam.

...and printing a cartoon in a largely read print publication.

Quote from The Postman

That being said, 9/11 was not justified, just as these riots and threats of death are not justified.

Yes it was, I said it, I'm not america, and I still said it, it's all words, meaning nothing.

Most of the anti-somefancything people are just saying things. I have met people who were at the same time in a anti-McDonald's rally with me that said "McDonald's is raping rainforests" and at the same time the dude was smoking a cig, can you imagine the inanity of that.

Most of hating something is done out of not knowing anything, not being any smarter than the person you oppose. As like we don't know jack about muslims and their religion and culture we bash them, they don't know jack about our religious beliefs and culture and they think we are all hitlers and bash us.

I think Zilla said this like a decade ago, but most things are done out of ignorance, and untolarance.

That is all, go to bed.

Quote from killertomato

Aaaw, FFS postman, give it up. You lose. Accept it pls k thx bye! Very HappyThis discussion is going totally nowhere: RD is repeating it's points and you keep making beautiful little pirouettes around them, claiming you are bashing them.

Abusive behaviour and using alot of powerfull terms and cursing does not make you win or summin dude, just accept your losses, let go you pride and get that bloodpressure under control before it gets you.

Oh, and btw, this is the 5th time youre about to delete my post. Smile

Everything you post is garbage. Your posts are unfounded, your arguments are puerile and your grasp of debate is laughable. While Postman may have a differeing opinion than you, he is certainly addressing these points and countering them. Everything that you post is shit. Stop posting, read a book and get some opinions with a factual basis. You know what? Let me reiterate that. STOP POSTING

Postman isn't necessarily right. RD isn't necessarily right. In issues of foreign policy, there is no objective or empirical right.

But you are wrong. You are uninformed and ignorant. You have contributed nothing to this discussion.

Go reread Postman's long and what was presumed to be his final post in this thread. It wraps everything said into a nice little package and shows a very complex and well-informed understanding of the situation. While it isn't necessarily my own feelings on the topic, it is a very well-reasoned and logical argument.

I'm staying out of this thread for the most part. While I have the gist of the history of the middle east, I'm not nearly as informed on the topic as I'd like to be.

Oh, one more thing.

STOP POSTING.

Quote from RD

Page one of the old thread that was locked.

Then reference the proper thread next time.

Quote from RD

You know the definition of justified? Having a valid reason.

The people doing it thought it was justified. Those who can look at it objectively know that it wasn't. That's the difference.

Quote from RD

A man can murder his wife because she cheated. She is still not responsible.

She's responsible for her own actions, not her husband's. However she must've known he'd respond quite negatively if he found out. There are more levels to this than simple black and white reasoning that you seem to be fond of.

Quote from killertomato

scraps is postmans 2nd account. 10 posts in total and all made in political discussion. :wink:

Is that all you've got?

Please.

Quote from Scraps

Is that all you've got?

Please.

Flamewar over. Back to the topic at hand. That goes for both Killer and Scraps.

Quote from killertomato

scraps is postmans 2nd account. 10 posts in total and all made in political discussion. :wink:

IP's aren't even vaguely close to each other. But nice attempt at an ad hominem attack. Don't do it again.

Quote from RD

A man can murder his wife because she cheated. She is still not responsible.

RD, in Iraq an Iraqi who was living in Norway went back to Iraq with his wife, and killed her (she was Norwegian).The man was going to be executed by hanging.

His reason was that he thought she cheated.