The root of all evil: the human being itself?

    Mawibse, Nietzsche i assume? He's a madman, good writer though.

    Anyway, my own thoughts on free will are all based on the undeniable awareness of itself (which is proven by doubt, which is the only thing one cannot doubt - the one thing Descartes based his philosophy on when he 'started all over'). It is my firm belief (and i'm getting closer to getting logical proof for this stand) that awareness cannot be explained only through physicial processes and that it can be traced back to a more pure level of reality which be can get a glance of through conscience. Read Immanuel Kant: He made his so-called Copernican turn dismissing the idea that we can see reality objectively and embraced the idea that we cannot go round some tools we need to interpret reality: time, space, causality, etc. He listed twelve (i think) of those categories. These 'glasses' we are wearing all the time are disguising this more pure reality and turn it into how we see the world. However, awareness cannot be explained in terms of these categories. Not because of a limited knowledge right now but because of a fundamental incompatibility. I've written an essay on the 'proof' (if you can speak of proof when it comes to philosophy) of this, but this is the basic idea.

    So now you agree with me because its logical. Excellent. We are making a little progress. As for the logical proof, just read all my posts again

    There are logical gaps in your proof, circular reasoning among them. All the time i agreed with you and i was aware of that i just disagree with the logic behind it.

    Quote from DaanO

    There are logical gaps in your proof, circular reasoning among them. All the time i agreed with you and i was aware of that i just disagree with the logic behind it.

    Where is the gap then

    Quote from RD

    A paradoxic example for this paradigm, youre hungry and see 3 donuts, 1 pink and 2 black. Your first thought is to eat them, you have no control over this thought because its an impulse. Youre second thought is youre overweight. You have no control over this thought either, it is based on the memory of a recent heart attack. Youre decision not to eat the donuts is based off 2 thoughts you had no control over.

    Lets go with your idea that the two "thoughts" dictating the decision is something you have no control over, how does this logically mean that the decision is something I have no control over?

    Its like saying that if you could pick the two doors yourself, from which you will choose one, then it would be a free choice, but if someone else put the two doors there, then choosing one of them is not a free choice?


    Quote from DaanO

    awareness cannot be explained only through physicial processes and that it can be traced back to a more pure level of reality which be can get a glance of through conscience

    Why do you think awareness cannot be explained through physical processes only?

    What does "a more pure level of reality" mean?

    Another description would be "an objective interpretation of". And i'll think of a way to explain why it cannot be explained (it's a web of thoughts in my head right now), in the meanwhile, please falsify the thought

    Because of these 'glasses' i already explained we deform reality

    Falsify your thought, hmmm, how about questioning the reasons for this theory?

    Ok so your a priori is awareness of yourself or that a 'I' exists, and you say that all a posteriori is distorted through 'glasses' or rather by the 'tools' we need to experience them.

    So you got one a priori, and you dismissed all a posteriori, you will need a couple of more a priori to make logical reasoning concerning free will and its relation to awareness don't you think?

    Give them to me and I will squash this theory like a fat bug.

    The world is fucked up right now!

    Once upon a time, there was the world, and it was good. Then people got all pissed off about everything, and there was violence and sin, and that was bad. Then people decided they needed a device to stop people from doing so much violence and sin, and there was Hell, and it was good for the bad people that is fucking the world up and destroing it.

    Dante famously divided Hell into nine concentric circles of increasing nastiness, behind a gate with the logo "Abandon Hope, All Ye Who Enter Here"

    The signs of the apocalypse depend on your religious bent, but you might be in the apocalypse if you notice one or more of the following:

    * Fire (whether nuclear or otherwise)

    * Floods

    * Pestilience (i.e., plague, anthrax, SARS, etc.)

    * Wars

    * Rumors of wars

    * Strange lights in the skies

    * The Second Coming (of whomever you happen to be expecting)

    * A virgin birth

    * The birth of the Antichrist

    * Also a spree of false Christs and/or Messiahs

    * Cloning

    * Identifying marks being placed on the population at large

    * Famine

    * Earthquakes

    * The Rapture

    * Tornados, Hurricanes

    Yeah and + the global warming.. It's allready coming..

    The 2012 date appeals to a pretty wide demographic within the category of "people waiting for the end." It's potentially consistent with Nostradamus, for instance, based on the numbering of the popes (we've got two more to go and at least one of them meets a bad, early end). It's an exact date, which is always nice, and it also benefits from the application of what we shall loosely call "science" to the overall apocalyptic concept.

    The other appeal of the 2012 theory is that it doesn't technically call for the "end of everything" or a "Last Judgment," eliminating the unpopular and potentially painful aspects of the apocalypse while keeping all the cool weird stuff.

    The Mayan long count calendar is a list of days in the Fourth Sun, the current cycle of the world. The calendar simply ends on Dec. 21, 2012 (the winter solstice)

    Quote from mawibse

    Lets go with your idea that the two "thoughts" dictating the decision is something you have no control over, how does this logically mean that the decision is something I have no control over?Its like saying that if you could pick the two doors yourself, from which you will choose one, then it would be a free choice, but if someone else put the two doors there, then choosing one of them is not a free choice?

    Because a conscious choice is made of thoughts too, the same thoughts or doors that were put there by someone else.

    If you cant choose the doors at the beginning of your thought process CONSCIOUSLY, then you have no free choice of where you will end. One thought will go somewhere, another thought will go somewhere, up to the point what we call consciousness and meet each other. Then you believe you can make a conscious choice between the two.

    But in order to make a conscious choice between the two, there has to be more thoughts than those two, or you wouldnt be able to think about the thoughts. You cant make a conscious choice without thinking.

    Its so mindboggingly simple that its complex.

    Quote from Nz-Nexus

    The world is fucked up right now!

    It's always been fucked up

    Quote from Nz-Nexus

    Dante famously divided Hell into nine concentric circles of increasing nastiness, behind a gate with the logo "Abandon Hope, All Ye Who Enter Here"

    Good thing Dante wasn't a prophet and not just writing fiction. His writings have no bearing on Christian (or any other) doctrine and only use it as a prop for his story.

    Nostradamus was a vague quack, the Mayans simply stopped making their counter and if you honestly believe this shit you're a frickin' paranoid delusional idiot.

    Quote from RD

    Because a conscious choice is made of thoughts too, the same thoughts or doors that were put there by someone else.

    Be they thoughts or doors, their origin is always from something we have no control over.

    If you play the backtrack game, only if you where an omnipotent god would you have a free choice. Even a soul wouldn't help you there.

    Quote from RD

    If you cant choose the doors at the beginning of your thought process CONSCIOUSLY, then you have no free choice of where you will end.

    Because?

    Say I have two thoughts I have no control over, but the choice between which one to go with, is a conscious DECISION.

    Quote from RD

    But in order to make a conscious choice between the two, there has to be more thoughts than those two, or you wouldnt be able to think about the thoughts. You cant make a conscious choice without thinking.

    Uhmm, two thoughts would be the ones you couldn't control and the third would be the conscious thought leading to the decision of which of the uncontrolled thoughts to go with.

    Quote from RD

    Its so mindboggingly simple that its complex.

    I think you oversimplified since I can't follow your logic.

    Let me just add some additional reflections:

    Thoughts might start off as uncontrolled but you can control where they go.

    Consciousness is not just thoughts, it's the awareness of an 'I' as well.

    You can have multiple consciousness at once or different, one at a time.

    The feeling of having done something of free will has nothing to do with if your brain actually controlled what happened or vice versa.

    Quote from mawibse

    Consciousness is not just thoughts, it's the awareness of an 'I' as well.

    And what is the awareness of an I made of if not of thoughts?

    Basically you say there is something else than our thoughts that controls our will, which is exactly what i said was the logical conclusion.

    Quote from RD

    And what is the awareness of an I made of if not of thoughts?

    The same thing love or fear is made of, electrical currents in the brains.

    You experience it much more then your thinking about it.

    You have an awareness of an I without thinking about it.

    Quote from RD

    Basically you say there is something else than our thoughts that controls our will,

    Yes the consciousness, it's a higher mental process.

    Consciousness is more then just a bunch of uncontrolled thoughts though.

    Quote from RD

    Basically you say there is something else than our thoughts that controls our will, which is exactly what i said was the logical conclusion.

    No you said the logical conclusion was that there was a metaphysical soul making the decisions and feeding them to the brains.

    Consciousness is quite physical as it is beyond a doubt originating from your brains.

    How do you know consciousness is made of electrical currents, and not of thoughts? And what are thoughts made of? Electrical currents?

    Quote

    But sure, a metaphysical soul, god or strawberry might very well be the one who starts or affects those activities, but honestly, I don’t think so.

    But do I know? No.

    But neither do I know if it was the soul of the stone that decided it was time to roll down the hill.

    The fact that you dont know, that you are not conscious of it proves that your consciousness cannot control evrything and therefor there must be something else

    Uhm.. that was me RD, not Mawbsie

    omg , mawibse i destroyed your post. I pushed the edit button instead of the quote and i am a mod now so youre whole bookpage is gone

    MOD ABUSE!!! Hehe! :wink:

    Quote from mawibse

    The fact that you dont know, that you are not conscious of it proves that your consciousness cannot control evrything and therefor there must be something else

    First off, its not a fact that I don't know, its a very likely asumption, and that your not conscious of it proves that... eh...

    I agree, my consciusness does not control everything, thank god, I'd prefere if its control is limited to my body.

    Some consider the "something else" to be the laws of nature. But you are welcome to whatever floats your boat.

    Quote from mawibse

    First off, its not a fact that I don't know, its a very likely asumption, and that your not conscious of it proves that... eh...

    If you cant say with 100% certainty of what controls you, you are not conscious of it and when you are not conscious of it you cannot consciously control it.

    Quote from RD

    If you cant say with 100% certainty of what controls you

    What controls me? You mean like what influences my decisions?

    Well no, you can not be certain what influences your decisions.

    Quote from RD

    If you cant say with 100% certainty of what controls you, you are not conscious of it

    Yes, you can not be conscious of what you do not know.

    Quote from RD

    when you are not conscious of it you cannot consciously control it.

    Yes, you can not consciously control something you don't know exists.

    However, what I can consciously decide between are those things that I am consciously aware of, like the different thoughts on why or why not I should eat a cake for example.

    That you don't know what a Camshaft is or what it does does not mean you can't drive a car.

    See it like this; there are unconscious reasons for you to have some uncontrolled thoughts popping into your consciousness, however once they entered consciousness you have some control over the thoughts and might use them as basis for a conscious decision or as a veto for some physical activity.

    Think of it as a golf player that makes several swings before getting a go from your consciousness before hitting the ball.

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