I need to get this out of my system

I actually agree with the support the people there.

But then again, I have to say that most of them are there for their own free will. Many joined after the war had started, just to go over seas to fight for stupid cause.

So, there is not symphaty left in me for those who marched there and invaded another country just for kicks. It's not "just another job that has to be done" it's killind people and invading a country, a shitty job, nobody should do.

I think these people protest against the false pretences for which soldiers like your father were sent to Iraq in the first place and for bringing them back home before more get killed.

However it is arguable if these protests actually help the soldiers in Iraq or not. I guess not in the short run, but imagine everybody would keep his mouth shut about the war. Maybe next week your father would get sent to Iran then.

What's wrong with protests ? The funny thing is that the USA is, supposedly, the land of freedom and free speech, but as soon as people go to the streets to protest or something you guys get pissed off. As someone above said, we can't just shut our mouths.

When one goes to the army, he must be aware that he becomes a "slave" to his government. It sucks in countries where army service is obligatory (like in Brazil) but people aren't forced to go to the army in the states. They must be aware that if they join the army they won't represent their opinion anymore, but their president's. If they are clever enough they will realize that the protests are not against them but against their government (which they happen to represent).

Quote from johnm487

I said it was my brother, and two weeks into his basic training 9/11 happend. Right then we all knew he was going somewhere shitty, but he did it and he came back alive. I know, maybe we shouldnt be there, but what if we did nothing about this stuff? Should countries be allowed to make nuclear weapons? Do you actually trust countries that house terrorist's and manufacture nuclear weapons?

I'd like to present the good saying here that I think fits the bill.

"One man's terrorist, is anothers freedom fighter"

Do I trust countries that house terrorists/warmongers/militants/other such, and manufacture nuclear weapons? You mean like USA? To many people in Afghanistan, Iraq, Columbia and Somalia, the soldiers of USA are just plain terrorists, they are funded by goverment just like Bush is accusing others doing and they fight for a cause THEY think is just, but at the same time, they kill innocent people and destroy their homes, schools and hospitals. Just like terrorists do.

USA seems to be the only country that allows itself to have nuclear weapons, and they seem to have the right to attack any country no matter how flimsy the motivation is.

So, you see, it's pretty much a point of view than matter of morale or justice.

Protesting is fundamental because it's free speech in action. It's one of the most basic freedoms we have. Do you have to like it? No. But just because you don't like what people are saying, doesn't mean they can't say it.

Right now we're in Iraq to "democracy build" and bring their country freedom. Is this why we went over there originally? No. But hey, if you can't find WMDs, you might as well do something positive. Now I support the mission and I support the troops. I'm about one of the biggest liberals you'll ever meet, but I'm not an idiot. You can't just leave. It would leave a massive power-vacuum. You've got to make sure that Iraq is stable enough for us to leave. The problem is the President's plan is doing a shitty shitty shitty shitty shitty job at that. That is why people are protesting for the msot part. Yeah, there are always those protesters that say idiotic things. It can't be helped. But don't paint the entire liberal, anti-war community with the same brush. I don't call every Republican an homophobic, racist, anti-woman, anti-education, anti-science, anti-liberty, gun toting, wife beating, child abusing, Bible thumping redneck just because the people on the very far right tend to be. We can play that game all day long, but it doesn't get anywhere.

So back to protesting. We can't try to bring liberty to Iraq and oppress liberty at home. First of all, it's massively hypcritical. Secondly, it doesn't give Iraq much confidence in the system we're trying to build for them. Now, does protesing decrease moral? Maybe, maybe not. I've talked with soldiers back from Iraq that really hate the war and appreciated war protesters trying to bring them home quicker. I've also met soldiers who think George Bush is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and hate anybody protesting him. It's a mixed bag. As it turns out, humankind ia rich tapestry of emotion. The point is, we can't just isolate any behavior that might piss off some soldiers and ban it. Besides, from most people that I've talked with, having their friends shot or blown up on a daily basis decreased moral a lot quicker than any news from home. Most of them only used the internet or read American newspapers once or twice a month. There's not exactly a lot of liesure time to read the NYTimes with a cup of coffee.

So all in all, I support our troops. They have a shitty job, and it's being made harder by their leaders being rather inept in both putting them in this situation in the first place and then not fixing their errors when they were very clear and obvious. But I'll also support the protestors, because I like the Bil of Rights (even that wacky second ammendment). The smartest thing Bush can do is show the Iraqi people that democracy means everybody gets a voice, even if it camps out across the street and annoys you.

P.S. The protestors wanted to be arrested. They wanted to be on national TV breaking the anti-protesting law. Wifes and mothers of fallen soldiers being arrested for speaking their minds is golden footage from a PR standpoint. Plsu, they know that if they get 60 or 70 people arrested, there will be no more room in the county jail. Just wait until Cindy Sheehan arrives. Some serious shit is going to go down when she gets arrested. Talk about making martyrs out of molehills.

Quote from johnm487

I see your point and i agree. But why attack America in the first place? thats what i never understood about terrorist attacks. Terrorist attacks happen all over the world, its just not the US. I never understood these countries that dont let there women have any say what so ever, and that just plain hate America and other countries. Why attack two buildings killing thousands of innocent people? Why send a bomber in a hotel to blow himself up killing dozen's of innocent people?

It's a feeling we all share, I would say that only 1% of terrorist attacks is reasoned in any way, and even then, very little logic has been used.

I would think that human history is going to be a very short one at this rate, only way to survive is to understand how everyone is just the same. The man behind the power is just the same as Fletch, the poor man in the gutter is just like Kosmo, the man driving the porche is same as Mino, the guy fighting the war is just like Peris and he is fighting the war against a dude who is just like Klein to overthow a dictator that is just like Frie.

We need to get rid of things that try to tell us why we are different, why some people go to the supposed heaven when they die, or why someone is a western devil. Other is a sandmonkey or what the hell.

No countries, one union and most of all, no religion mixed with politics.

But yeah, we are humans, I bet we'd fuck that system up too. So I'm off to Tibet, trying to find enlightment before crazy people blow the planet sky high.

I don't have the time to read through the whole thread, but in your original post, you falsely accuse those who do not support the war of not supporting the troops. While SOME may dislike both, most level-headed individuals from both the left and right wings understand that there is a difference between supporting the military and supporting every military undertaken. It would be ignorant to assume the two go hand in hand all of the time, when in reality it is drastically different. Furthermore, the troops are carrying out the action. They need to, it's their job. The war protesters are protesting the fact that they're there because of poor policy decisions.

Cindy Sheehan isn't white trash. Her son paid the ultimate sacrifice in Iraq, her family has paid for her right to free speech in blood.

In regards to post #4: there is no meaningful link between Iraq and 9/11.

Mino: I wholeheartedly agree. There is an insane double standard regarding protesting. Case in point: pro-war protesters within the 7 mile limit of the ranch are allowed to remain protesting.

The bottom line remains: terrorism is not a black and white issue, despite what some people would like to think. People would like to think that terrorists were the spawn of the Devil, and want to kill each and every American or person who supports America. What they do is horrible, but that doesn't make it alright to do horrible things in return. People need to realize that the world is cyclical, things happen in cycles and they happen because of past events. If you think that you can defeat terrorism by invading countries on false intelligence, torturing people, stealing oil money from the people of an occupied country, etc. you'll be proven wrong. If history is forgotten, it will repeat itself. So many of the actions taken by the United States government and its allies are so shocking hypocritical, you can't help but think that they're asking for all the negative press they seem to be getting now.

Go ask Israel how well aggresion worked with terrorism.

Everybody just got to keep doing what theyre doing. Americans stay in Iraq, PEOPLE at home protest against it and Bush leave office in a few years.

Its easy saying that invading Iraq was dumb, but the whole world was fooled, and we would still be in a mess today BECAUSE there was no solution. Its HYPOCRITICAL, just like saying that fighting terrorism isnt the solution. The whole world is flabbergasted, you just as much as Israel Lurker.

LEARN ENGLISH. - Posteh

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Quote from johnm487

Im totally against this women. Her son did pay the ultimate sacrifice, i know, but he knew it could happen, and so did she. Why is she getting all these people arrested? She's not even there.

They are there under their own power... how can you possibly blame this on Cindy Sheehan? It's not like she locked them up and put them there...

Quote from johnm487

but instead, we have white trash democrats like Cindy Sheehan protesting.

She lost a son you fucking retard. Until you do so likewise, join the military, or otherwise, you have no room to question her protest of this illegal war.

Quote from johnm487

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10173879/It just makes me so mad. Aside from the war, and our president being a total idiot, the fact that theres people like this, makes me sick. Support your fucking troops, because there your brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles. Protesting a war doesnt do any fucking good, it just gives your troops low moral. They're over there in some shitty country, missing their families, and they look back home for support.

Protesting wars gets our troops home faster sometimes. Research: Vietnam. Nowadays we know that the soldiers are not at fault for the war that they are fighting and our fighting men and women are greeted with the affection they deserve. You can support the troops and oppose the war.

Quote from johnm487

My brother was in Iraq for a year and i support him (even though were not on good terms at the moment), not because he was fighting a war, because hes been through hell, and he looked back home for suppor from his family and friends. and i gave his support. i talked to him online, on the phone, and i always told him he was doing a good job. He obviously didnt want to be there, but he was doing his job. So please, i ask you, you dont have to support a war, just support your troops.

And you can oppose the war and support the troops. Saying that it's unpatriotic to protest this war is fucking blind, it's ignorant and it's just patently dishonest to the fighting men and women on our nation's front lines. They're fighting for freedom and democracy, and we have the freedom to oppose our government's actions, such as this illegal war. Perhaps you are one of those "red-staters" that has forgot the true meaning of "freedom" shortly after our sitting president raped the word of any real meaning after using it 47+ times per speech and dragging its use through the mud of lies, backbiting, intrigue and political motive.

Quote from johnm487

I said it was my brother, and two weeks into his basic training 9/11 happend. Right then we all knew he was going somewhere shitty, but he did it and he came back alive. I know, maybe we shouldnt be there, but what if we did nothing about this stuff? Should countries be allowed to make nuclear weapons? Do you actually trust countries that house terrorist's and manufacture nuclear weapons?

Bush allowed North Korea to get nukes, FYI. We haven't invaded them. Iraq had no nukes. Iran has access to them probably and we haven't invaded them either, just for notification.

Without protestors democracy will not work, there has to be questioning regarding decisions made by those in charge.

Voicing out your opinion is the healthiest thing to do.

There is no draft atm, so my question is this: Who told all your brothers and sisters to join the military?

I hate seeing all these soldiers and mothers and fathers complaining about their son/daughter being in a war. Why dont most people realize that if you join the military and there is a war YOU HAVE TO GO!