Paris riot Jihad

Quote from RD

They dont want to integrate, they want us to adapt to their way of life, want more mosques, more islamic schools, easy jobs and marry someone back in Morocco so the entire family can move to Holland.

Do they not have the right to do these things? If they work the jobs and pay the taxes, what gives you the right to limit their religious practices and places of education? Why are Catholic schools allowed in some places, when Islamic schools are not? Why are church developments supported, while Mosques shunned?

Integrating into a society and assimilating one into another are completely different things. What you are demanding is that they leave behind their religion, traditions and beliefs to adopt yours.

Good luck with that. A society that fails to change is destined to fail.

P.S: I am in no way endorsing the violent actions of these youth, but the underlying issues remain.

Quote from RD

Have you considered the possibility that it might be their fault? Why is it so completely impossible that it could be their problem?

Because practice and reality are two completely separate things. I realize that one side is never right 100% of the time and that one side is never wrong 100% of the time, as you are incinuating "immigrants" as being. I never said it was impossible that it was their problem, what I said was that there is a possibility that it might not be their problem. Context is extremely important, especially in online debates.

The bottom line to this situation is that in reality, it is much too complex an issue to blame solely on immigration into a society and the immigrants' failure to assimilate.

Its funny that you said i generalize when in fact i made differences between groups of immigrants. Why can 99% immigrants from the one country behave like normal people while the half of a different country can't? This is for sure not my fault or problem. It must have to do with their culture and education.

I dont say that my culture is better or worse then theirs. It may work for them in the countrys they are come from. But over here it just doesnt work and they annoy us with that. All the crime and aggresion on the streets make me sick.

As a guest you have to follow the rules of the house you life in or you will be kicked. On a smale scale everybody understands this. But why not on a large scale? It doesnt make sense for me.

Quote from Steppenwolf

As a guest you have to follow the rules of the house you life in or you will be kicked. On a smale scale everybody understands this. But why not on a large scale?

Because once they represent a significant percentage of the population they help define the rules of the house. If people feel underrepresented they will make themselves heard - understood, violence is the absolute last resort but these people seem to be pretty frustrated. I'm not very sympathetic but I can at least understand where they're coming from.

Quote from Lurker

The bottom line to this situation is that in reality, it is much too complex an issue to blame solely on immigration into a society and the immigrants' failure to assimilate.

From what I've read (and that's all I can do, is read reports on google news because I don't live there) and infer, the situation pretty much *can* be blamed on immigration into a society and the immigrants' failure to assimilate. Going down the line you need to find cause for that immigration to begin with and secondly that failure to assimilate and I think that is more the root of the argument.

Also I don't think any of us have degrees in sociology.

This night burnt the first cars in in two german citys. Thats so fucked up. Germany is a rich country. They get free education, healthcare, social safety like everybody in this country who has not enough money. The reason why they are frustrated is that they life in selfmade ghettos. I mean the youth is in the third generation now in germany. They could be integrated already without a problem if they and their parents didnt decided to life like in little Istanbul. They should blame their parents and not the society they life in or the government :roll:

Sorry but i dont have understanding for these people. In my town life many chinese and vietnamese people. Their culture is very different too. But how come that it is barely noticable that they life under us and when you see them or go to their shops they are always friendly und obliging.

Is it possible to take that very stupid remark "Jihad" from the forum topic off, it hurts my brain and makes me 10 points less intelligent everytime I see it.

But I agree with Steppie, most other cultures don't have that kind of "easy outbursts," my friend once accidentally hit some foreigners car and the man just jumped him instantly and started to accuse his family and all Finnish for being stupid and all that, shouting some crap about Christianity and all that. It was an isolated incident but I just get the picture from all the current happenings that many foreigners are not wrapped so tight.

Ofcourse I would be pissed too if things like that happened here like they go down in Paris, but I am way too educated and smart not to jump in easy conclusions that the goverment and every not like me is the reason for everything that has gone down.

Want to argue? Get some insight.

Quote

If France's population of immigrant origin -- mostly Arab, some black -- is today quite large (more than 10% of the total population), it is because there was a government and industrial policy during the post-World War II boom years of reconstruction and economic expansion which the French call "les trentes glorieuses" -- the 30 glorious years -- to recruit from France's foreign colonies laborers and factory and menial workers for jobs which there were no Frenchmen to fill. These immigrant workers were desperately needed to allow the French economy to expand due to the shortage of male manpower caused by two World Wars, which killed many Frenchmen, and slashed the native French birth-rates too. Moreover, these immigrant workers were considered passive and unlikely to strike (unlike the highly political French working class and its Communist-led unions.) This government-and-industry-sponsored influx of Arab workers (many of whom saved up to bring their families to France from North Africa) was reinforced following Algerian independence by the Harkis.

The Harkis (whose story is movingly told by Dalila Kerchouche in her Destins de Harkis) were the native Algerians who fought for and worked with France during the post-war anti-colonial struggles for independence -- and who for their trouble were horribly treated by France. Some 100,000 Harkis were killed by the Algerian FLN (National Liberation Front) after the French shamelessly abandoned them to a lethal fate when the French occupying army evacuated itself and the French colonists from Algeria. Moreover, those Harki families who were saved, often at the initiative of individual military commanders who refused to obey orders not to evacuate them, once in France were parked in unspeakable, filthy, crowded concentration camps for many long years and never benefited from any government aid -- a nice reward for their sacrifices for France, of which they were, after all, legally citizens. Their ghettoized children and grandchildren, naturally, harbor certain resentments.

Quote

"What hope does a young person have who's been born in a quartier without a soul, who lives in an unspeakably ugly high-rise, surrounded by more ugliness, imprisoned by gray walls in a gray wasteland and condemned to a gray life, with all around a society that prefers to look away until it's time to get mad, time to FORBID."

Thanks.

The real irony in all of this is that violence and rioting has one of the smallest success rates in instituting lasting change. With the first confirmed death, France's government is going to be stepping up in a big way to stop riots. I would not be surprised to see a "shoot to wound" order within the next few days, followed quickly my numerou reports of rioters getting shot. That's going to end of a lot of riots dead in their tracks. The neighborhoods where these things are popping up from are going to get some major security crackdowns as this thing dies off. It's going to be the exact opposite of what the original rioters wanted in the first place.

Now, am I saying any of that is the "right" solution? Not really. But then again, neither was rioting to begin with. This is just one of those things where both sides lose and the social fabric becomes even more split.

The real irony is that nothing will change because of this, both sides will still maintain that the other side is completely in the wrong without looking at their own faults. The blame falls squarely and evenly on both sides, it's a shame no one will admit it.

Quote from RD

I was talking about Holland, do you actually read what i write?

Anyway, back to france, im not denying theyve been treated badly. They want revenge, some insight from me

Look at the context of my messages, anything that deals with you is in the proper context.

I wasn't talking about the treatment of immigrants in Holland or France individually, I was talking about the treatment of immigrants in general. Again, the difference between France and Holland in this situation is that the immigrants in France are fighting back now, that doesn't make the situation in Holland any worse or any better. The treatment of immigrants to a country is extremely universal, what applies to one country likely applies to another country, especially one that neighbours it.

To say it's a tradition to blame oneself for the actions of others is a gross hyperbole.

Except that what RD said is basically true, even in the United States, people ARE arguing that the western culture is to blame for not being "tolerant" enough with this group, and while I do not think that is actually true, if you read his post, that is the point. States are saying "well what do we need to do to make these radicals not hate us" but the thing is there is nothing, because they are radicals. I happen to agree very much with RD's post, and really to say its "a gross hyperbole" is quite ironic.

Quote from Holeman

Except that what RD said is basically true, even in the United States, people ARE arguing that the western culture is to blame for not being "tolerant" enough with this group, and while I do not think that is actually true, if you read his post, that is the point. States are saying "well what do we need to do to make these radicals not hate us" but the thing is there is nothing, because they are radicals. I happen to agree very much with RD's post, and really to say its "a gross hyperbole" is quite ironic.

I did not call his whole post a hyperbole....

Quote from Kosmo

...but I am way too educated and smart not to jump in easy conclusions that the goverment and every not like me is the reason for everything that has gone down.

No you aren't.

I win.