Is torture ok?

Quote from mawibse

How are they the biggest evil?

Well, first they seem to fight for wars they can easily win and usually they do so only if their own interest is at consern, like how about Tibet? Why don't USA go and introduce their oh so great democracy to them? They have been opressed by China well over 50 years. But USA doesn't want to do that because they can't win against China and frankly they don't give a rats ass because there aren't any oil wells around there.

USA seems to get away with everything in the public eye, THEY FUCKING ATTACKED ANOTHER COUNTRY FOR CHRISTS SAKE! They are the main reason why Cuba is still like it was in the 50s! What more do you want?

Killertomato, do you mean noble ideas like the US embargo against Cuba?

Or the fact how the alleged weapons of mass destruction were nowhere to be seen after the total obliteration of Iraq? What nobel ideas? What?

The wonderful power of different views at work.

I despise every military action, you accept them as necessary evil.

Quote from mawibse

Uhm lets see, has embargo, has attacked other countries with crappy reasons.Sorry to say, neither of those is uncommon, infact I find those more rampant in other countries so I cant see how they are the BIGGEST evil?

America is the superpower, so naturally its the biggest.

mawbise ftw!

Humour + discussion = w00tness

It has nothing to do with the size of the country, it's about the magnitude of their human rights violations and the size of their influence.

Well then Kosmo, there are other countries which are alot worse. The US is pretty bad when it comes to stuff like war and treatment of prisoners tho

Maybe there are worse countries that treat their prisoners badly, or have constant war, but not a single country can rival USA in the scale of the shit that goes on, and USA doesn't just do one thing, they seem to have their finger in everyhole lately. They don't even care about a civilwar in their neighbouring Mexico, the shit hit the fan in Chiapas long time ago, there are slavery and poor treatment there every day, and USA goes half way across the globe to pick a fight. And to top all that, they don't even care that everything they buy from Mexico actually funds the civilwar against the natives of Chiapas.

There isn't just any retribution to the actions USA has made lately.

not doing anything about bad stuff isnt the same as doing bad stuff. For example holland does nothing about mexico (whatever goes on there), it doesnt make us the worst evil in history.

Quote from mawibse

Uhm lets see, has embargo, has attacked other countries with crappy reasons.Sorry to say, neither of those is uncommon, infact I find those more rampant in other countries so I cant see how they are the BIGGEST evil?

The argument of whether they are or aren't the biggest evil is disingenuous. The fact that:

a) The United States tortures people in black facilities;

b) The United States won't allow any accountability take place;

c) The United States won't allow any visits to varify the wellbeing of its "suspects";

d) The United States routinely ships its terrorist suspects to foreign countries in secret where they know they will be tortured, and use the information gained for its purposes (read: Maher Arar).

The fact that United States government won't own up to the fact that these things take place only compounds the problem. They aren't operating the way they are supposed to based on the American constitution. Any apologism for the government's action is truly thrown away by any true patriot who wants the best for his country.

They may not be the worst, but the fact that they work hand in hand with the worst human rights abusers puts them well into their league. You can dance around the issue all day but at the end of it all, there are companies under the veil of the CIA whose sole purpose is flying suspects to other countries where they are tortured.

American tax dollars at work, doing the work of democracy and freedom.

Quote from Kosmo

It has nothing to do with the size of the country, it's about the magnitude of their human rights violations and the size of their influence.

magnitude of human rights violations, well by that reasoning, the US really are liberators because there was a despot named Saddam Hussien who killed his own people, or has everyone forgotten about him aswell?

Quote from Holeman

magnitude of human rights violations, well by that reasoning, the US really are liberators because there was a despot named Saddam Hussien who killed his own people, or has everyone forgotten about him aswell?

Has everyone forgotten that the US military is dropping bombs with depleted uranium tips, sickening not only their own soldiers but a huge segment of the innocent Iraqi population? Has everyone forgotten that the US dropped atomic bombs in the Nevada desert whose effects spread over densily populated areas?

It's so easy to point fingers and say the other is worse. The United States really needs to clean its own closet before it forcibly cleans other's. Oh, and using Hussein's human rights violations as a reason for going to war doesn't work either. Genocides have occured in Sudan and Rwanda recently, much more recent and much more devastating than the Iraqi massacres. I wonder where their Knight in Shining Armor is... you already invaded Iraq once after the gasing of the Kurds, why didn't you deal with it then? Right, because the United States only cares about human rights violations when it serves their policy (kinda like their intelligence... funny).

Agreed Lurker!

Lurker for President.

RD, the fact that Holland doesn't do anything about the situation going on on Mexico doesn't make them bad or evil, but you don't try to be some sort of world police forcing everyone else doing as you say, USA doesn't do anything to Mexico because they still get the goods from there, the fact that it was produced by slaves doesn't make it bad in their books, many of the corporations in US are doing the same thing.

And even if Saddam Hussein was a evil dictator it just didn't start the war, there still are dictators and opressors in the world, and they aren't doing jack shit about it. They had their own agendas for attacking Iraq.

And USA again created a situation where there will be unhabitable land in Iraq and Afghanistan for several decades just like in Indochina area where USA dropped mines and clusterbombs and many still are there and cause fatalities and injuries still today, and that makes the people in to a burden to the society costing several million dollars a year to the goverment and hindering their social developement. And USA is nowhere to be seen. They should clean the mess and pay for the medical bills.

Fuck US goverment.

The citizens of the United States really need to step back and answer a very simple question: are we a police officer or bully?

The people of the world used to look on the United States and see a country that stood for what was right, just and fair in this world. Back in the Civil Rights movement, etc. The problem with being at the top is you desire that which cannot be attained, and in doing so you achive your downfall. It's the life (and death) of a superpower, a cycle that has held true for century upon century and seems to be holding true again. You can tell yourself it can't happen, you can tell yourself it won't happen, couldn't, shouldn't, wouldn't happen. That makes absolutely no difference unless you change your policy, you change your point of view, and you change who is running your country.

So sit back, grab a lawn chair and a cheap (and crappy) American beer. Grab some chips, maybe some popcorn. Cuddle up with your wife/girlfriend/partner and gather round the kids. Tuck your gun into your belt and wave your party's flag... tell yourself your vote can't, won't, couldn't, shouldn't, wouldn't make a difference. And it can't, won't, couldn't, shouldn't, wouldn't.

"'We do not torture,' Mr Bush told reporters during a visit to Panama."

laff.

Torture will only get you the answers they think you want, since they will say anything they think will get you to stop.

I don't believe it's a reliable method of obtaining intelligence.

Quote from Lurker

magnitude of human rights violations, well by that reasoning, the US really are liberators because there was a despot named Saddam Hussien who killed his own people, or has everyone forgotten about him aswell?

Has everyone forgotten that the US military is dropping bombs with depleted uranium tips, sickening not only their own soldiers but a huge segment of the innocent Iraqi population? Has everyone forgotten that the US dropped atomic bombs in the Nevada desert whose effects spread over densily populated areas?

It's so easy to point fingers and say the other is worse. The United States really needs to clean its own closet before it forcibly cleans other's. Oh, and using Hussein's human rights violations as a reason for going to war doesn't work either. Genocides have occured in Sudan and Rwanda recently, much more recent and much more devastating than the Iraqi massacres. I wonder where their Knight in Shining Armor is... you already invaded Iraq once after the gasing of the Kurds, why didn't you deal with it then? Right, because the United States only cares about human rights violations when it serves their policy (kinda like their intelligence... funny).

Depleted uranium is not health threateningly radio-active . . . hence the term depleted. It has already expended all it's radiation.

Thats all a myth that someone assumed since they know uranium must be bad and know nothing about physics, but it's just gotta be bad becuase it's a buzzword and soon it's a movement even though nobody tried to look up the real facts. There is more background radiation from minerals in the ground than there is in depleted uranium.

Where do you think they would store all these rounds if they were able to make people so sick? In a giant concrete bunker? Whats shielding the people loading the rounds or the people in the tanks/planes where they rounds are loaded?

People are so fast to tack on these "facts" that fit thier arguments so well without ever reading proof that they are in fact true. In fact there have been several papers published about the non-effects of depleted uranium that I could go look for if anybody is really that interested in it.

Quote from Zaphod

magnitude of human rights violations, well by that reasoning, the US really are liberators because there was a despot named Saddam Hussien who killed his own people, or has everyone forgotten about him aswell?

Has everyone forgotten that the US military is dropping bombs with depleted uranium tips, sickening not only their own soldiers but a huge segment of the innocent Iraqi population? Has everyone forgotten that the US dropped atomic bombs in the Nevada desert whose effects spread over densily populated areas?

It's so easy to point fingers and say the other is worse. The United States really needs to clean its own closet before it forcibly cleans other's. Oh, and using Hussein's human rights violations as a reason for going to war doesn't work either. Genocides have occured in Sudan and Rwanda recently, much more recent and much more devastating than the Iraqi massacres. I wonder where their Knight in Shining Armor is... you already invaded Iraq once after the gasing of the Kurds, why didn't you deal with it then? Right, because the United States only cares about human rights violations when it serves their policy (kinda like their intelligence... funny).

Depleted uranium is not health threateningly radio-active . . . hence the term depleted. It has already expended all it's radiation.

Thats all a myth that someone assumed since they know uranium must be bad and know nothing about physics, but it's just gotta be bad becuase it's a buzzword and soon it's a movement even though nobody tried to look up the real facts. There is more background radiation from minerals in the ground than there is in depleted uranium.

Where do you think they would store all these rounds if they were able to make people so sick? In a giant concrete bunker? Whats shielding the people loading the rounds or the people in the tanks/planes where they rounds are loaded?

People are so fast to tack on these "facts" that fit thier arguments so well without ever reading proof that they are in fact true. In fact there have been several papers published about the non-effects of depleted uranium that I could go look for if anybody is really that interested in it.

True, Depleted Uranium has a long half-life which means that is has low radioactive qualities. BUT, it is very dangerous to your health, proof, Gulf War Syndrome.

Depleted Uranium can turn in to a fine dust in a fire, which just increases the risk of infecting you. True, there is still a debate going on in scientific community IF Depleted Uranium has these kind of qualities, but that doesn't take away the fact that the Gulf War veterans are almost two times more likely to have a child with bith defects than other war veterans.