Is torture ok?

My pacifistic toughts didn't stop me from going in to the army, the fact that finnish goverment spends 2 billion euros of taxpayers money every single year to fund our beloved "experience of a lifetime."

And after all that our country has homeless people, goverment cuts back it's services and public companies like VR (railroads) and Posti (postal service) loses more and more funding and resorts to stupid cutbacks, not to mention the funding schools get and the study grant are both rediculous.

This country doesn't care one bit of it's citizens, if they did, Finland would be more like Sweden. But we are a capitalistic country ran by selected elite.

Quote from Kosmo

My pacifistic toughts didn't stop me from going in to the army, the fact that finnish goverment spends 2 billion euros of taxpayers money every single year to fund our beloved "experience of a lifetime."And after all that our country has homeless people, goverment cuts back it's services and public companies like VR (railroads) and Posti (postal service) loses more and more funding and resorts to stupid cutbacks, not to mention the funding schools get and the study grant are both rediculous.

Because you weren't in the army doesn't change anything and people don't pay any less taxes. You might as well experience what you are paying for. Some of the memories I have from my time in the army are priceless.

The good thing about the army is that it really makes many people mentally tougher (also physically, but that's less important) and they become more responsible individuals.

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This country doesn't care one bit of it's citizens, if they did, Finland would be more like Sweden. But we are a capitalistic country ran by selected elite.

Please don't be so narrowminded.

Quote from GrayFox

Because you weren't in the army doesn't change anything and people don't pay any less taxes. You might as well experience what you are paying for. Some of the memories I have from my time in the army are priceless.

The good thing about the army is that it really makes many people mentally tougher (also physically, but that's less important) and they become more responsible individuals.

You mean like, if I donate money to the red cross but it won't save everyone, I shouldn't do it? If I don't accept something, but it doesn't change anything, it's meaningless? You got some twisted mind there.

And it's straight bullshit that Army somehow magically transforms you in anyway or another, as well I could say that civilservice turns you man because often the job is hard, the pay sucks and if you try anything funny you go straight to prison. But I know that is bullshit also so I won't say it.

If you are a sack of shit when you go to the army you are one when you come back from there, it's up to you yourself to make the change. And usually it happens when you grow up and realize that life isn't that easy anymore.

Quote from GrayFox

Please don't be so narrowminded.

It's narrowminded to think that army changes you in someway.

Kosmo, its like that in every country. The world isnt perfect, just take a look at yourself and what your doing to help all these poor ppl, nothing. Doesnt mean you dont care does it?

The reason you think too much money goes to your army, is PEACE.

Quote from RD

Kosmo, its like that in every country. The world isnt perfect, just take a look at yourself and what your doing to help all these poor ppl, nothing. Doesnt mean you dont care does it?The reason you think too much money goes to your army, is PEACE.

So what if it is the same in the whole world, does it make it ok? Or does it make it so that no one should make anything about it?

I donate as much to charities as I can, last year alone I donated around 200€ to Finnish Red Cross. I went to civilservice not to be a burden to the society, atleast I didn't COST anything to the goverment as opposite to those who chose to go to the army.

And ofcourse I think that Finnish defence forces spend too much money to upkeep because of peace, but finland has around the same amount of soldiers in reserve than Norway and Sweden put together, not to mention tanks and helichopters and all that shit.

Quote from Kosmo

You mean like, if I donate money to the red cross but it won't save everyone, I shouldn't do it? If I don't accept something, but it doesn't change anything, it's meaningless? You got some twisted mind there.

You can't compare donating money to charity with boycotting the army. Both charity and the army are ultimately for a good cause, atleast here in Finland. The army is not for war, it's for defence and security. (NOTE: atleast in Finland).

What I'm trying to say is that boycotting the army won't do any good to anyone.

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And it's straight bullshit that Army somehow magically transforms you in anyway or another

You haven't experienced it so you can't say anything about this. I didn't personally change much, but I saw A LOT of growth in others' personalities.

People are the sum of their experiences and the army is one hell of an experience.

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Please don't be so narrowminded.

It's narrowminded to think that army changes you in someway.

No, for many people it's a fact.

This thing has gone very much off-topic.

GrayFox FTW!

Whooo!

Quote from killertomato

This thing has gone very much off-topic.

This usually happens on page 2 in every mapcore thread.

Quote from GrayFox

You can't compare donating money to charity with boycotting the army. Both charity and the army are ultimately for a good cause, atleast here in Finland. The army is not for war, it's for defence and security. (NOTE: atleast in Finland)

Well, you really can't compare the "good" cause of the army to the really good cause of a charity like SPR now can you.

Quote from GrayFox

You haven't experienced it so you can't say anything about this. I didn't personally change much, but I saw A LOT of growth in others' personalities.

People are the sum of their experiences and the army is one hell of an experience.

I agree, it might be a hell of an experience, and I agree that people are the sum of it's parts, but I just can't agree that when one goes to the army he all of a sudden becomes a better person, or worse person.

I have friends who have gone to the army and I have friends who have taken the civilservice, neither of them are dramatically different from each other. I even have one who got release from army because he had overweight, and he isn't that different either.

I went in to the theater last week, I'm a now culturally savey?

If you worked there for like 20 years, then you'd definedly be different from others, and even more different if you went in to some sort of military school. But some 6 months of camp can't change person dramatically.

Quote from GrayFox

Please don't be so narrowminded.

It's narrowminded to think that army changes you in someway.

No, for many people it's a fact.

And some people think Genesis is a fact.

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You haven't experienced it so you can't say anything about this. I didn't personally change much, but I saw A LOT of growth in others' personalities.

People are the sum of their experiences and the army is one hell of an experience.

I agree, it might be a hell of an experience, and I agree that people are the sum of it's parts, but I just can't agree that when one goes to the army he all of a sudden becomes a better person, or worse person.

I didn't say everyone changes and I didn't say you become a better/worse person, but some do change. These changes aren't necessarily noticable to you.

Quote from Kosmo

So what if it is the same in the whole world, does it make it ok? Or does it make it so that no one should make anything about it?

No, it just doesnt mean your country is a heartless capitalist machine. From my experience most ppl are really dumb about things like budgets and where money should go, they always know it better. The economy has ups and downs, get over it. And the thing ppl need most in countries like Africa is stability, which is what an army can give.

Just shows you how long it takes for US media to pick up important stories, the Toronto Star had a huge article about the secret terrorist holding areas where torture is not only common but rampant (NOTE: this action violates the Geneva Convention, which the United States has sworn to follow).

Stephen Hadley: "The test of your principles is what you do when no one is looking."

You've got to be fucking kidding me. More true words were never spoken. This guy wants the people to believe that they hold suspected terrorists in secret prisons indefinitely and don't torture them? Laughable. They won't even let them into Gitmo Bay, let alone secret prisons.

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the successful defense of the country requires that the agency be empowered to hold and interrogate suspected terrorists for as long as necessary and without restrictions imposed by the U.S. legal system or even by the military tribunals established for prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay.

Well that's just about the most uproariously disgusting remark I've ever heard in the name of "freedom" and "democracy."

"Oh well we didn't like those rules that make us a better nation and a free republic, so we decided we'd just forget about them and pretend they don't exist!"

Fuckers. I'd like to thank everyone who supports this current administration (who are currently trying to make the CIA exempt from the anti-torture bill in congress right now) for eroding the very fundamental natures of our great nation. Cheers.

Hasn't US policy on torture in their "war against terrorism" already become very clear? Does anyone need to get a clue anymore.

The US policy on torture in their "War Against Terrorism" is infact very muddy, publically anyway. There is no denying that they have tortured many prisoners, they however completely and utterly fail to admit this in public. If their public actually realized they weren't only spreading democracy and peace, but also corruption and hatred, they wouldn't have the support they do in their War on Terror.

its not just the "war on terrorism" its something thats been going on since the US became a superpower...there was once a thing called a cold war, the "war on terror" is just another tagline for whats been going on through out history and i dont just mean US history, its just right now the US is the "biggest and baddest". dont trust the politicos!

Same thing that is happening in Russia and China, aswell as in many other countries. But the problem with USA is that many people see the goverment there as good and righteous, they actually believe that they are just valiant heroes fighting against evils of the world, when infact they are the biggest evil.

Quote from Kosmo

Same thing that is happening in Russia and China, aswell as in many other countries. But the problem with USA is that many people see the goverment there as good and righteous, they actually believe that they are just valiant heroes fighting against evils of the world, when infact they are the biggest evil.

Get a grip pls. At least they have nobel ideals. You only seem to be critisizing them...