Dumb Design vs Intelligent design

    Quote from RD

    awesum

    Learn how to spell you ignorant mass. This is a terrible day for science and learning. Naturally your wacky ass thinks it's great though. Go post more about alien rape or something.

    Well seeing as A) I'm the only person here who as lived in Kansas and b) I'm the only person here who has worked in Kansas politics, I'll explain some things surrounding this vote.

    First, almost every person in this state is pissed off about the new education standards. Every school district. Every college. Every business even tangentially connected to science. The problem is Kansas politics is dominated by one very small group with a very loud voice: far-right social conservatives. Now I'm not going to blame this on religion, because the vast majority of the state is very religious and does not agree with this first group. The problem is that this group keeps getting a big voice in almost every political decision. And it all has to do with population density.

    Go google a map of Kansas right now. It's pretty much a big rectangle. The problem is that that the population is almost all at the far eastern edge in Kansas City, KS and the surrounding suburbs. A little farther west from there you get Lawrence (where I lived and where University of Kansas is), then Topkea (the capitol), then Manhatten (where Kansas State University is). Directly south from there is Witchita. And that is about it as far as population centers go. The western 2/3rds of the state is almost all rural farm and ranch land. If you happened to visit this part of the state you would notice that is is very flat and appears to be stuck in 1950.

    Western Kansas has nothing going for it. NOTHING. Farms and ranhes don't make money like they used to, so the entire area is economically depressed. If you want a good job, you leave. If your kids want a good job, they go east to one of the state colleges, and then they leave. If you can't afford college, you go into the military and leave. Which means a lot of people are stuck their entire lives out there. The infrastructure sucks because there is no profit to be had in improving it. That means most people don't have cable TV (unless you live in one of the larger towns like Salina or Junction City), broadband internet (or 56K for that matter), or many other things a lot of us would find to be basic parts of our standard of living. So if you want something to do, you lsiten to AM radio, you go to church, or you work longer.

    So why is this imporant, and what the hell does any of this ahve to do with evolution? Well West Kansas, while comprising about 66% of the state's land, only comprises about 25% of the population. And it's all spread out. So almost all of the elected offices out there are giant districts that are incredibly hard to get around in because all the raods are shit. So if you're running for Congress, State Senate, State Rep, School Board, etc you've got to find a way to get across to a lot of people who don't watch TV or read the daily news (or catch it on cable networks or the internet). So you've got to find people where they congregate. Church. And your ads have to be in a medium they pay attention to. AM Radio. That is why conservatives win out there. Which is also why some rather extreme personailties get elected, too. Rational, well educated people who are from the area, leave. So you get bitter people who stayed and probably didn't get any education past high school.

    So the school board always gets about 3 or 4 people from that area because some districts overlay more moderate, populated sections. Those people didn't run because they care about education. They ran so they could have a bully pulpit and spew their ideology. Most of them don't really see the point in having an education past high school. Most of them have really negative views of the state universities (which are luckily not governed by them). So they don't really care whether students are prepared for college or the workplace. They're more worried about whether the kids will stay on the farm.

    So every few years, this shit happens. But in 2006, 4 of those seats are open and will most likely be replaced by some high shcool principals or other people form the area with some degree of education who will be very well funded from outside interests. They'll win the seats, take over the majority, and switch the ruling. Then in 8 or 10 years, it iwll flip again. It's Western Kansas politics, and it never changes.

    The thing that gets missed in all of this is that the local school districts actually ahve finally say over curriculum. I'd say 95% of the districts teach evolution with no problem. 5% in Western Kansas don't teach evolution, have long lectures about Creationism or ID, and it's what those towns want. The smart kids from those school end up leaving anyways.

    The people getting the shaft are the new teachers. KU's School of Education is having a hard time convincing freshly graduated teachers to go to West Kansas to teach. They know that the pay is low, the communities are hostile towards education, and the social life kind of sucks, too. So West Kansas tends to get the shittiest teachers on the market, and they don't even get enough of them, so all the classes are overcrowded.

    In the end, it keeps Education as a top issue in statewide races. The governor is actually a Democrat (the state is like 55% Republican, 25% Democrate, and 20% Independent) who is a huge backer of education. It looks like she's going to win re-election in a landslide because all of her Republican challengers are looking expectionally hostile toward Education. So in the end, the social conservatives picked a big fight over standards which are in the end optional, and the Democrats get to keep the Governor. Democrats won.

    Quote from Fletch

    The problem is Kansas politics is dominated by one very small group with a very loud voice: far-right social conservatives.

    This is a problem over-whelming America. At one time America stood for freedom, liberation, but the way things are going we keep getting farther and farther from that due to hypocritical conservative groups using those same ideas to do just the opposite.

    These groups of hardcore assholes are able to stick together and lobby control in politics, while very few intelligent, sane people do the same.

    Imagine the conversation that took place in the mind of the intelligent design theorist.

    Quote

    Theorist: Okay, so seriously, scientist guy, like every creature as it is today was invented by God. The Bible says so.Scientist: No, proven facts and reasoning show that all life evolved from simple life forms. Also you can't use the bible to prove the bible, that's bad logic.

    Theorist: Oh yeah right... eh... but seriously. How about this... okay maybe I can sell you on only half stupid? That sound okay... does half stupid sound good?

    Now watch, this is the point in the conversation where the responses of the scientist are filled in by the simple mind of the theorist:

    Quote

    Scientist: Well eh... maybe.Theorist: How about this, say every simple life form was invented by God, then evolved from there?

    Scientist: Okay so you want to piss off scientists by teaching children unscientific reasoning, you want to piss of religious people for only taking part of their theories and rejecting the rest, and if this theory is eventually taught in schools you will piss of politicians by mixing church and state.

    Theorist: Yeah... like for serious.

    Scientist: Well okay, I'm okay with half stupid!

    Don' you people go to sunday schools there in america, get your crackpot wacky theories from there and leave the education system as it is.

    The worst point in some of the politics played in US is that they fuck care what 90% of the rest of western world is doing, we are bringing European schooling methods and systems to Africa and Europe has largely standardised education system, if you go from country to country the schools teach almost the same things.

    I have several times compared European Union to Soviet Union, they make alot of crazy rules and to somepoint are looking for their own interest, but they bring alot of good things. The States should be governed under the goverment of USA like European countries under EU, if Kansas wants to be different, then kick them from the union and let them try to survive like a fish on the dry land, kinda like what we are doing to Turkey right now. We ain't going to take them in to the Union because we know they have humanrights problems and the lack of religious freedom. They don't play by our rules they don't reap the benefits of the Union.

    Quote from Kosmo

    Don' you people go to sunday schools there in america, get your crackpot wacky theories from there and leave the education system as it is.

    Please don't refer to me and Americans like me as "you people." I don't like to associate myself with dumbasses or dumbasses who like to associate me with them.

    Quote from Kosmo

    The worst point in some of the politics played in US is that they fuck care what 90% of the rest of western world is doing, we are bringing European schooling methods and systems to Africa and Europe has largely standardised education system, if you go from country to country the schools teach almost the same things.

    I'm thankful that most Americans have an independent view of thinking. That's what makes democracy work, or what little we have of it left.

    Quote from Kosmo

    I have several times compared European Union to Soviet Union, they make alot of crazy rules and to somepoint are looking for their own interest, but they bring alot of good things.

    The soviet union justified it reasoning with the communist way of thinking, that is, forcefully distribute wealth for the good of the people. Not realizing this is a completely flawed way of thinking the union fell apart.

    The difference between a selfish American is that is it open and honest. A communist is dishonest and hides it by using the word "people" or "we."

    Quote from Kosmo

    The States should be governed under the goverment of USA like European countries under EU, if Kansas wants to be different, then kick them from the union and let them try to survive like a fish on the dry land, kinda like what we are doing to Turkey right now.

    No it should not. You may not understand this but a key point to the long standing structure of the USA is the "balance of power." This is done by dividing the goverment into different branches, executive (presidential), legislative (congress), and judiciary (jury). As well as the seperation of state power versus national power. This helps to balance voting so states like California/Texas don't run the entire country.

    We could rework the system to just kick Kansas, but that would be stupid. That's why the United States goverment has been primarily the same for almost 230 years now. While government structures in Europe continue to rise and fall.

    Quote from Kosmo

    We ain't going to take them in to the Union because we know they have humanrights problems and the lack of religious freedom. They don't play by our rules they don't reap the benefits of the Union.

    We ain't no fool, but we thinks you're dumb. It sucks that you, like most Europeans, are still stuck using words like "we" when most Americans like me can freely use the word I and feel no shame. I don't doubt it was unjustified excluding Turkey from the EU, but some how, I don't know, I'm just throwing this out there, I believe it's from ignoring rules and standards agreed upon ahead of time. In the case of Kansas, they did not violate any US government rules, but if we want to, we can still overturn the states decision by revising ammendents of the constitution which clarifys rules behind mixing church and state.

    Quote from DD

    Please don't refer to me and Americans like me as "you people." I don't like to associate myself with dumbasses or dumbasses who like to associate me with them.

    Or the dumbasses who don't get a joke?

    Quote from DD

    I'm thankful that most Americans have an independent view of thinking. That's what makes democracy work, or what little we have of it left.

    Indipendent view of thinking is good, but when the indipendent view of thinking thwarts the success of a mass, then the indipendent view of thinking is just an act of indipendent stupidity.

    Quote from DD

    The soviet union justified it reasoning with the communist way of thinking, that is, forcefully distribute wealth for the good of the people. Not realizing this is a completely flawed way of thinking the union fell apart.

    The difference between a selfish American is that is it open and honest. A communist is dishonest and hides it by using the word "people" or "we."

    Correction to your obvious gap in knowledge, Soviet Union fell apart because the people who ran the country were all bunch of selfish assholes who didn't act like communists, or even socialists, but prime examples of selfish capitalists with a power of a country behind them, they were like bad CEOs using the company resources for stupid R&D.

    Quote from DD

    No it should not. You may not understand this but a key point to the long standing structure of the USA is the "balance of power." This is done by dividing the goverment into different branches, executive (presidential), legislative (congress), and judiciary (jury). As well as the seperation of state power versus national power. This helps to balance voting so states like California/Texas don't run the entire country.We could rework the system to just kick Kansas, but that would be stupid. That's why the United States goverment has been primarily the same for almost 230 years now. While government structures in Europe continue to rise and fall.

    The same shit for 230 years and it surely shows, your goverment is still in the fucking trees, eating bananas and using a stick to dig for ants.

    Quote from DD

    We ain't no fool, but we thinks you're dumb. It sucks that you, like most Europeans, are still stuck using words like "we" when most Americans like me can freely use the word I and feel no shame. I don't doubt it was unjustified excluding Turkey from the EU, but some how, I don't know, I'm just throwing this out there, I believe it's from ignoring rules and standards agreed upon ahead of time. In the case of Kansas, they did not violate any US government rules, but if we want to, we can still overturn the states decision by revising ammendents of the constitution which clarifys rules behind mixing church and state.

    Europeans use the word "we" because WE search for common good, and not I to search for personal gain and wealth, which seems to be the biggest problem in the states, even in personal level. Remember "I" does not share but "we" gives.

    Not givin Turkey an easy chance is "ignoring rules and standards agreed upon ahead of time." Wow, that is a load of bull.

    But as always, you and I (or should I say we, it's easier than say 'you and I') are both entitled to our opinions. I respect yours, it really gave some insight to the way "you people" think.

    I would respond in detail explaining your idiocy but there is not point. I can already tell there is no convincing you.

    Actually I can't resist.

    Quote from Kosmo

    Indipendent view of thinking is good, but when the indipendent view of thinking thwarts the success of a mass, then the indipendent view of thinking is just an act of indipendent stupidity.

    Independent is spelt independent. You might have learned that if you were. You would be suprised how the thoughts of a single person will rule a crowd who is afraid to think independently justifying it as a mass. Nazi Germany. Also if English is not your first language I apologize.

    Quote from Kosmo

    Correction to your obvious gap in knowledge, Soviet Union fell apart because the people who ran the country were all bunch of selfish assholes who didn't act like communists, or even socialists, but prime examples of selfish capitalists with a power of a country behind them, they were like bad CEOs using the company resources for stupid R&D.

    Yes they were selfish assholes, but pretended to be selfless. It's much easier to be selfish if you're morale and honest.

    Quote from DD

    The same shit for 230 years and it surely shows, your goverment is still in the fucking trees, eating bananas and using a stick to dig for ants.

    Yes, because having goverments that fall to the same mistakes that never last is much better.

    Quote from Kosmo

    Europeans use the word "we" because WE search for common good, and not I to search for personal gain and wealth, which seems to be the biggest problem in the states, even in personal level. Remember "I" does not share but "we" gives.

    Remember that "common good" is very personal. It common to all want power and wealth, but I want it, by trying to share it forcefully you get a communist government. I don't want to share my wealth with shitty unmotivated people. What reasoning is it that demands I share my wealth with people who don't have it? I work hard for the money. It is mine and mine to claim, and fuck all who dare try to claim it.

    Quote from DD

    Independent is spelt independent. You might have learned that if you were. You would be suprised how the thoughts of a single person will rule a crowd who is afraid to think independently justifying it as a mass. Nazi Germany. Also if English is not your first language I apologize.

    While I agree that mass that is afraid to think for itself it is open to outside control.

    But working with others for common goal and thinking about others instead of just working for yourself is far from "being too afraid to think independently."

    And no, English is not my native language, sometimes I write words wrong out of habit even if I know how they are really written.

    Quote from DD

    Yes they were selfish assholes, but pretended to be selfless. It's much easier to be selfish if you're morale and honest.

    And by this you condemn all communist societies? Look how is now being too afraid to face the truth and is being controlled by american propaganda machine from the cold war era.

    Quote from DD

    Yes, because having goverments that fall to the same mistakes that never last is much better.

    You might want to try to explain that "goverment that falls to the same mistakes" part, as I don't really see that happening in Europe.

    Quote from DD

    Remember that "common good" is very personal. It common to all want power and wealth, but I want it, by trying to share it forcefully you get a communist government. I don't want to share my wealth with shitty unmotivated people. What reasoning is it that demands I share my wealth with people who don't have it? I work hard for the money. It is mine and mine to claim, and fuck all who dare try to claim it.

    Correction, in Europe we don't necessarily work towards wealth and success by the expense of others, but we all have equal chance for it. Our common good means that we all have equal right for education, the social security backs us up, most parts of Europe works through this rules, every man is created equal, unlike USA that has severe problems in that area.

    You are just an elitist who doesn't know any better, who is misinformed and too shorsighted to see anything differently. What if your momma and poppa didn't have money to get you proper education? In Europe that wouldn't have been anykind of problem, and in Scandinavia you'd still get the highest education, regardless of your wealth. What if you didn't get a job with your education because the job market sucks? Well, in Europe you'd be still able to live, and have a good healthcare. Sick? Again, not a problem.

    Your whole society is based on opressing some group of people, first it was the slaves, now it is other minorities and immigrants. And you my friend, are a prime example of an ignorant human being, who thinks that all he has achieved in his life is just natural and that you don't have anything to give back to the society, you infact, are destroying your very own country you so much love.

    Common good, is for the people.

    I gotta say you dont know much about each others countries. It cant be true that you have to pay for education, that you dont get money to live from if you cant find work or are too sick, and if you are sick, the state doesnt pay the treatment. What kinda 16th century society would do that? It is an oxymoron, when your parents need money to give you a fair chance in life. It isnt fair, but i guess evrybody that doesnt make it are just lazy losers that didnt try hard enough.

    Higher levels of school are very expensive in the states, college and university can cost 15,000 to 40,000 per year and even more for graduate student.

    Without an insurance or company healthcare plan the bills are left for you to pay. So don't you dare to get sick.

    Basically they take as good care of you as a 16th century society did.

    Well, I don't believe that they have to pay for those in general, since everybody has to be able to read to function properly in society. But I guess there is no exception, there must be some "better" private schools there too that you have to pay for. But in general, I think it's free.

    GGRRAARR PAT ROBERTSON SMAAAAAAASH

    Love how apparently we elected God out of a city. Didn't know you could do that. We don't have that ballot box on our voting slips here.

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