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Quote from von*ferret

If signs are what it takes to discourage people from taking advantage of a disaster than I fully support "you loot, we shoot." I dont see how you guys can justify stealing. Stealing is stealing whether they're in a disaster zone or not. I would not want people making excuses for me if I was the one choosing to steal.Johnathan good to see you're back online, i'll be back in sav on the 13th if I dont get held up in the new hurrican orphelia or what ever.

Stab in the dark here, but by any chance do you disagree with rape victims getting abortions?

Quote from Kosmo

Tell me Izuno, did you study? How much did it cost? What have had happened if you didn't have money to go to shcool? The uncertainty is what I hate, and capitalistic world is full of it.

Yes I studied....both college and grad school. I don't think they made me smart...just gave me language and contexts on how to view the world, plus filled my brain with many ideas and stuff that I didn't think up on my own.

Quote from von*ferret

If signs are what it takes to discourage people from taking advantage of a disaster than I fully support "you loot, we shoot." I dont see how you guys can justify stealing. Stealing is stealing whether they're in a disaster zone or not. I would not want people making excuses for me if I was the one choosing to steal.

yes. stealing is stealing. there is no question about that. i'm not going to debate that particular issue but instead ask a question that may get us thinking differently.

- what if people who were looting/stealing found a way to put up signs for the TV cameras and onlookers to read that read the following whilte they were looting/stealing:

Hello. We lost everything in the hurricane. We have no food, no drinking water, no stable shelter,no sanitation facilities, nothing but the clothes on our backs. We do not want to break into dormant stores and steal food, but we have yet to receive any aid from anyone. If we don't get food, we will starve and possibly die. We don't want to starve. So we are choosing to break into these stores and take food. Please send help. We are very sorry but we don't know what else to do? Do you have any suggestions? Should we just roll over and die? Again, please help us. We would really appreciate it.

a few points about that:

1) I don't think anyone had signs like that...at least I never saw any on the news.

2) I did recall seeing "HELP" written on rooftops etc, but that was it.

3) I agree that stealing car stereos and boomboxes is bullshit. But what about clothing? Diapers? Clearly some gray area exists if you believe stealing/looting for survival is justified in dire circumstances. What justifies "dire"?

Food for thought.

Quote

3) I agree that stealing car stereos and boomboxes is bullshit. But what about clothing? Diapers? Clearly some gray area exists if you believe stealing/looting for survival is justified in dire circumstances. What justifies "dire"?

That is the thing I can justify, because they're doing so to survive the disaster. I'm more furious over the people who have the energy and enough food in their stomachs to go steal tonka truck cars for infants out of toy-r-us and the fact that every jewlery store in the flooded areas were completely ransacked. I was brought up that if you're poor that you fight for an education and work hard to bring up your family. My mom worked her way up from an extreme poverty only earning 5k a year, funded her way through college, became a teacher for children who are unable to fit into society (special education) and now directs the 6 major counties of Oregon on early intervention programs. She is a prime example of how even poor people can 1.) get an education through working full time and school along with scholarships 2.) do something you love and 3.) be a good benefit to society

I'm not going to say she doesn't make a lot of money, because she does. The point though is that she worked her way up and now she has a comfortable living. Anyone can do it with enough drive. However I've lived in the south for 2 years now and am face to face with the southern "drive." In general I find that poor african american youth care more about getting a car with loud bass and going to the clubs to shoot each other at 3 am after the clubs let out. Johnathan can back me up here that its the sad truth about where I am. If they just had a reality check to tell them "look there are plenty of opportunities out there and you dont have to take this route" and if they took that SERIOUSLY than they wouldn't be poverty stricken. People need to take account for themselves and realize that the capitalist country we live in does not force you to have an education past grade 12 (or the age 18) and does not force you to have ambition. These are qualities you must garner yourself if you want to be successful. I personaly want to be successful and raise a family. Being rich would be nice, but I'd rather live comfortably and provide for a loving family than have a hand ful of cars and a hundred suits. That again is something that my parents instilled in me and something I grew into as I grew up. Sadly though the poverty stricken areas of the US dont have solid families to learn these lessons through, rather they have MTV to teach them lessons in pop culture and everything that is wrong and lazy about the US.

My brother and I were discussing the US yesterday and we came to the conclusion that we're no longer the super power in the world, if we are still than its for a limited time. Where were the days when we'd walk up to something and say "I'm going to build a big ass dam here that is majestic" and not care about the money or how long, rather that it would be an achievement (just want to say I dont agree with daming of rivers cause they kill my beloved chinook salmon). Look at the highway system and rail road system. We simply just BUILT these massive projects that were a testament to our society. Today we'd rather create the next "survivor" show in guatemala than create. Where as in other countries they're building the largest tower, biggest bridge, ect. Our countrie's laziness and lack of caring to garner our own education will be the death and fall of the "sleeping giant" we once were. We have spirit when we need it, but people every day forget the blessings our country had and take it for granted. Its a very sad thing.

For once I agree with you in that last sentiment ferret - complacency and misdirected effort will be the end of us. I believe our decline will be rooted in our abysmally undersupported public education system. Compound that with the young poor dropping out of school to take jobs to support their families and it becomes very difficult to work one's way out of poverty.

Last time I checked we put a lot MORE money into schools under the no child left behind act, however people still feel is under funded. I work in the school district at home and I see first hand how they spend their money. Its abysmal. The federal government can give you all the money you want, but mismanaging it and wasting it on plentiful-crap is going to incur. You have to give strigent guidelines and get people who know wtf they're doing to manage a system like that. Oregon found if I remember 360 MILLION dollars some how of mismanaged money sitting dormant in some account. How the HELL do you do that? Also, feeding million after million wont make people WANT to learn. That needs to come from the parents and the teachers. Its not the job of the government to force learning upon people. Its up to the parents to teach their children properly so they WANT to suceed. What I see though is lazy parents who really shouldn't be parents and have hoodlems growing in their homes, and parents who would rather have their children work for them as cheaper labor. Both instances are embarrassing, though the 2nd one is more cultural since in older times the more children you had to work for you, the richer you could become. (i'm thinking india here).

I worked for my city's education bureau (dunno if that's the word) for a month and I found out how they steal our money. The former mayor is the owner of the town's biggest computer reseller and ALL computer parts/anything computer related for the city is bought there. Ok, so you might ask so what ?

Well, their stuff is a LOT more expensive than the average (just for the town stuff of course). For example, they charge R$7,00 for a single CD while the average is R$0,99 (it's even cheaper actually). The education bureau bought some new computers (crappy ones, athlon 1.7, 128 ram, HD 40gb, 14' monitor) and paid R$3,300 for each one! My dad paid R$3,800 for his PC but its relatively good (Semprom 2.8, 512 ram, HD 80GB, radeon 7200 128mb, 17' monitor, multifunctional printer, dvd combo etc). Yeah, corruption is really bad over here

Its not nesc. corruption at fault, its just the lack of education on how to manage this type of stuff. This is one of the main reasons I'm a backer of reagan's policies. Bigger government doesn't solve the issue, a smaller smarter dedicated government that knows how to manage is the key.

pass the buck pass the buck pass the buck

i love the american dream but america sucks.

But completely free education is what I believe in, my dad is loaded and I could have gone to fine schools even if it wasn't free, but I know alot of people who I work with that are very talented and they woulnd't have had the chance to go to school if you'd have to pay for it.

And in a country like this, if you don't have education, you have harder time to get a job and when you are unemployed, you live in social security and become actually a burden to the society.

American dream is based on wishing and luck, maybe it works for some, but you have thousands of people actually dragging the rest down to the gutter with them, because you'll fall through, there are so little crimes in scandinavia because we don't have to steal to eat, our goverment, OUR goverment, the people WE elected and the people that answer to US, take care of US.

We pay the taxes, the goverment employees are our employees, I own my goverment, and that is why they take care of me, that is what I pay them to do.