[CS:GO] Exotic Places Contest TOP 4 WINNERS

Quote from Passerby97

On 4/13/2020 at 12:20 AM, Passerby97 said: I am not trying to be hostile. I am again, just saying that mapcore competitions mostly what decide maps in the game. So, again. If you dislike what maps get into the game the fault should be directed at the judges of those competitions, not the people at valve, who trust those judges and follow their decisions. It's not Valve's fault the most efficient way to get high quality maps is by following mapcore and it's competitions. Mapcore has an indirect communication channel to Valve. There should be nothing hostile about that.

Hey it's simple: Valve makes the game, Valve decides what content goes in it. It is totally "their fault" if a map you don't like ends in the official rotation. I wouldn't put it in those terms though because:

1. nowhere says they should support community content
2. they have picked maps straight from the workshop before
3. Valve-made maps are not necessarily welcomed either

Criticise the judges all you want if you don't like the winning maps, but you can't place any responsibility on them regarding what ends up in the game, as per above. The tournament prize doesn't comprise a slot in the official map rotation: no developer in their right of mind would ever promise that (nobody wants crap content in their game).

Oh you also said this previously:

Quote

Quote Sadly only few hand-picked judges in this third-party website decide what maps get the fabled top spot. This means nobody but them control what maps get accepted to the game. Effectively nobody else in the playerbase has any power to even slightly influence what maps get accepted to the game.

and it occurred to me that Warowl takes credit for the removal of Cobble from the map rotation. So you don't need a competition to affect the map rotation, because the only thing that Valve cares to judge this sort of thing is --like Google-- numbers. The community votes by playing, rating, downloading.

I won't reply on the competitive stuff because it would be a long game design discussion that goes way off topic, plus we have professionals here that can pick it apart better than me for sure.

Quote from Interfearance

On 4/13/2020 at 2:31 AM, Interfearance said: I think this is unfair because all of those games need a dedicated team to produce a map that is up to par. Also COD has a minute pc community. A lot of games with small levels or managably sized levels have some degree of modding

Also with billions in revenue, I don't think a few big projects are keeping valve from fixing up their cash cow properly. Laziness of valve not their employees.

A team is not a requirement but a production choice: you have multiple people working because it's faster and you want the map done in three months instead of one year. You are well aware there are entire games made by one person. By the way most of the maps in the contest were made by at least two people.

Dunno why you think people wouldn't manage creating AAA content, you maybe haven't seen the stuff produced for the Unreal contest that was run a few years back, or the Crysis stuff that people have in their portfolios. Many of the designers here are professionals that work or have worked on the aforementioned titles...

What are the major games that allow modding you are thinking of? There was actually a topic opened recently and I don't remember anything big being brought up.

Quote from blackdog

1 hour ago, blackdog said: What are the major games that allow modding you are thinking of?

Off the top of my head, all the fallouts, the armas, and halos till 4. Also a lot of games allow modding but I would get flamed because you need a separate client and it can be involved. Such an example would even be bo1, the worst cod for modding. Bo3 and bo2 had tons of custom maps for zombies. I used to watch so many videos of that.

To get to your point about creating the same quality maps in a matter of time, I don't really think this is possible. Its not just about manual labor. The concepts and ideas behind these maps come usually come from a seasoned team. If one guy can match the concept art/ideas (subjective duh), the layout quality, and the technical execution (scripts, effects, etc), we would have some AAA indie games indeed. Not to say some cry engine stuff isn't impressive, but having used the engine myself, it is not really the same thing as making a map from scratch. You have access to so many of the assets off the bat, and 99% of maps I have seen are in a jungle setting which entails prop distribution and terrain creation, along with a few outstanding structures, usually warehouses. Maybe I am wrong about crysis maps, send me pics.

Quote from blackdog

3 hours ago, blackdog said: Criticise the judges all you want if you don't like the winning maps, but you can't place any responsibility on them regarding what ends up in the game

You haven't really showed me that you disagree with me on my view that top Mapcore has been deciding maps for many years now, so I am not really sure what else outside to appeal to ignorance can be used to defend their judges from being at fault for what maps get accepted. I think you're misunderstanding something here as well. I replied to Interfearance's comments about which maps are being accepted to the game. I don't really care what maps get accepted into the game myself. I just play on community servers anyways. I also fail to understand what Warowl, one of the judges on the latest competition, getting a map removed from the game by rallying his followers is meant to prove.

why does every thread in here end up with layers of mental bullshit?

i think it becomes bullshit when you compare a game company to a cult that is incepting people by preying on their emotional fears

bit off-topic, but what does the LOL reaction mean? It seems to be used completely randomly in this thread: agree, disagree, funny reply, normal reply...

Quote from Passerby97

4 minutes ago, Passerby97 said: bit off-topic, but what does the LOL reaction mean? It seems to be used completely randomly in this thread: agree, disagree, funny reply, normal reply...

It means someone found your reply funny.

Passerby, in this case I think you've been banging your "there's an elite and powerful cabal at the top of Mapcore who pull Valve's puppet strings" drum for so long that people now just find it funny rather than disagreeable, confusing or plain incorrect. The same way people laugh when somebody goes on about faked moon-landings or chem trails. You've become a parody if yourself. It's funny. LOL. Haha. Etc. Of course, if you're correct we may all be sleepwalking in to a terrible dystopian future in which we all have to churn out boring 4-leaf clover CS maps or face being defrocked and whipped in public by a Mapcore moderator.

Quote from text_fish

23 minutes ago, text_fish said: Passerby, in this case I think you've been banging your "there's an elite and powerful cabal at the top of Mapcore who pull Valve's puppet strings" drum for so long that people now just find it funny rather than disagreeable

That's not my view at all. I simply think that the judges decide what maps win competitions, and maps that win competitions get into the game. There's no cabal or conspiracy there. I don't understand what it is specifically that you're actually even disagreeing with here. Those two are facts. I am not sure how you can disagree that judges judge competitions or statistics have numbers on them. Interfearances comments about which maps gets accepted to the game is understandable concern and I didn't see any hints of a conspiracy in that either. Warowl himself critized the judging competition's scoring system in his video about the competition. I think his criticism is understandable. This video is the reason I realized the mapcore trend and made this account in the first place. I think it's fair to point out that even if one of the judges thinks there's a high chance he's selecting a map for next the CS:GO operation, that might have some merit and not be some conspiracy theory on how they faked a moon landing on Lunacy. (which totally is the backstory of that map btw)

I god I shouldn't have got you started again.

Yeah lets cut the crap. Valve playtest maps they find interesting and add maps that are fun during playtests. And that should be the end of this discussion. No matter who or what created it or when or where, what a bullshit discussion this is... Who cares anyways? Be happy Valve encourage the community to make maps and add them, thats one hella cool thing right?

Quote from text_fish

3 minutes ago, text_fish said: I god I shouldn't have got you started again.

Sorry, but you got pretty hostile back there. If you think I am wrong on something here, please just tell me what it is and I wouldn't need to specifically ask you what it is you have a problem with.

Quote from Passerby97

14 minutes ago, Passerby97 said: I simply think that the judges decide what maps win competitions, and maps that win competitions get into the game.

Thanks for clarifying!

I was a judge in a map contest for Forgehub.com along with three others, not nearly as high a prize pool mapcore has but the barrier to entree was also alot lower due to the tool being installed with the game (halo 5) so that made up for it. Anyways, we made all of our scores across all categories public, as well as a short summery of our thoughts on each. All the judges agreed to be transparent before hand and on top of that, if anybody wanted to know more they could ask any one of us and we would walk and talk with them on their map.

Why is this valuable? 2 main reasons, accountability and growth. Being a "judge" implies that you have some merit in the eyes of your peers to look at another map and determine it's quality. Scores are NOT arbitrary but instead are reflections of an individuals thoughts and conclusions. Conclusions which could very well be fallacious, and could be objectively identified as such if they are held accountable for those scores by giving reasons. The words that come out of your mouth are similar to mathematical statements, they can be tested. However because we are all flawed humans and because we are not all on equal footing when it comes to education on critical thinking or the laws of logic, yes you will get different scores and conclutions, but some will most definitely be more justified than others.

I rated this map x/x because i feels too hard to contest x bomb site or x lane

Vs

I rated this map x/x because the enemy team has too many corners to hide in as I round this corner which forces me to make too broad an assumption which leaves me at WORST immobilized by the risk that comes with going through or at BEST getting lucky by guessing the correct corner. Leaving encounters up to luck undermines the competitive nature of the game and is therefore inferior

...one of those is very obviously better feedback, and i'd even say it's an objective truth that encounters should not come down to luck. Thats why people love CS gunplay to begin with, the consistency and control.

By making judges and their reasons transparent, even if the results are shown after the contest, you will be able to weed out the weak ones and keep them from attaining authoritative positions in the future. And just the fact that they know they will have to be transparent will put pressure on them to make sure they aren't careless on any one map they may be unenthusiastic about from the start for whatever reason

This brings me to my final point, good feedback leads to growth in the community. And i mean REAL growth. Finding areas where you can improve is invaluable information, and when it comes to a contest where judges are already playing your maps and JUDGING THEM, feedback should be mandatory

Good points brougth up by @Soldat Du Christ

Congrats on the Halo 5 contest and setting an example! However, doing what you suggest would imply more time and effort, especially from the guest judges. Who would want to put in more time than necessary? Imagine having to find a replacement for, I don't know - Warowl.

Quote from Radu

12 hours ago, Radu said: Good points brougth up by @Soldat Du Christ

Congrats on the Halo 5 contest and setting an example! However, doing what you suggest would imply more time and effort, especially from the guest judges. Who would want to put in more time than necessary? Imagine having to find a replacement for, I don't know - Warowl.

That's also a good point, beggars can't be choosers right? I've seen War owls content and i think he is more credible than others when it comes to looking at maps objectively. Losing him would be a loss, i don't know about the other judges.

I mainly brought this up after going through the thread and saw people being condemned for making the very reasonable request for feedback. And was someone actually banned for making arguments across the forum? Has he ever actually said anything rude to individuals on a personal level? Or was he just being a critic? I don't know how you guys do things here, but my experience here is that the culture is not balanced. There is a healthy amount of positivity and support for others, which is good. But you also need to welcome and even encourage a healthy amount of debate, else the community and therefore their content become stagnant and never grow

One user, @Tynnyri, was banned for flooding a lot of map threads with criticism aimed at proving how much better his map was than any others. If a map had good visuals he would call the layout unoriginal, if it had an original layout he would say the visuals were poorly made and not deserving of praise. He never gave positive or even neutral feedback, and when someone pointed out his criticism was wrong or gave him feedback he would reply dismissing that person. For two months it was hard to post because you knew your thread would be flooded with pointless argument. I think a lot of people saw him as a troll, since his replies would come in within minutes. He clearly was just sitting on the site waiting to argue rather than interpreting any of the criticism that was made against OR by him. I think people debating on the forum is great, but @Tynnyri just made a lot of people be toxic towards each other.

On the map feedback side: I think that the core mapcore judges should be required to release their feedback publicly rather than to personal request. I understand that guest judges have other occupations, but the main judges are part of the community and should be invested in helping it grow. The 2018 csmapmakers wingman contest did this for every map, and helped me develop my knowledge as a mapper a lot.

Quote from Soldat Du Christ

22 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said: I rated this map x/x because i feels too hard to contest x bomb site or x lane

Vs

I rated this map x/x because the enemy team has too many corners to hide in as I round this corner which forces me to make too broad an assumption which leaves me at WORST immobilized by the risk that comes with going through or at BEST getting lucky by guessing the correct corner. Leaving encounters up to luck undermines the competitive nature of the game and is therefore inferior

Obviously I would want as much feedback as possible too, but just want to point out that some people might consider the first option already a motivation (which objectively it is compared to "7/10"). There's also the problem that if you were to spend those many words (as in example #2) for every parameter of every map... it would be such an exhausting task that first few maps might get better votes/comments and the others get some bias just because the judge has had enough. Having little friction in the process I think ensures more honest scores.

That being said, maybe there could be something in between like detail the votes for the last stage of the contest, top 3 or top 10. I would assume people have to take some notes anyway... but it's hard, the organisers managed to involve prominent people in the CSGO Pro scene, I mean apart from Warowl they are all casters and commentators in the top tournaments.

Quote from DMU222

1 hour ago, DMU222 said: One user, @Tynnyri was banned

ah lol! I thought he just got bored of posting and getting pushback anything he said. Hadn't seen the forum that bitter since... maybe forever.

Transparency and pressure from the community for the judge to be objective and not come to conclusions based off of their fleeting emotions is what gives us the most accurate scores. BUT i understand not every judge wants to take it seriously and would rather coast through the contest. Oh well, it is what it is, not like they are getting paid