DE_CACHE (new version)

Your profile picture is surprisingly fitting

Quote from Le1T

42 minutes ago, Le1T said: P.S.S. CS 1.6 >>> CS:GO. Because CS 1.6 was created in order to play the best game on the planet; CS:GO was created in order to play the case opening simulator.

CS 1.6 was created to make an authentic Counter Terrorism operations shooter focused on realism and tactics, CSGO was created to be the xbox and ps4 and compete with COD and Battlefield. Both games came a long way from where they started.

Quote from fewseb

1 hour ago, fewseb said: Your profile picture is surprisingly fitting

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I'm really happy what we have now. Map is perfect. But... maybe add more greens ?

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Quote from fewseb

1 hour ago, fewseb said: CSGO was created to be the xbox and ps4 and compete with COD and Battlefield. Both games came a long way from where they started.

that's why Gooseman and Cliffe left VALVE.

Quote from Le1T

7 minutes ago, Le1T said: that's why Gooseman and Cliffe left VALVE. 

Gooseman left in 2007 because Valve wouldnt let him work on Counter Strike 2 mainly because they didnt want him making the realistic tactical shooter he always wanted to make, he really didnt like how CS became all about the competitive side and preferred 12 v 12 instead of 5 v 5.

Cliffe may or may not still be working at Valve but if he did leave he either left because he was in jail for a month do to a false charge against or was fired for the same thing. He was very active on the CSGO team up until he was arrested.

Quote from fewseb

5 hours ago, fewseb said: Gooseman left in 2007 because Valve wouldnt let him work on Counter Strike 2 mainly because they didnt want him making the realistic tactical shooter he always wanted to make, he really didnt like how CS became all about the competitive side and preferred 12 v 12 instead of 5 v 5.

In every recount I’ve heard, Gooseman never blamed Valve for anything, he says in this interview at 16 min that he couldn’t work with the restrictions the community creates. Not sure how that translates in mandare in the company, but I remember he always talked about having lots of freedom. I think to remember, maybe from elsewhere -there are several interviews he has done- that he felt too under pressure to deliver the sequel.

I don’t know, i played so much the original GoldSrc mods, still I was just a casual player and as such I wanted fun stuff added to the games, I remember fantasising with my friends what would be possible in DoD and CS thanks to the new physics engine: we wanted the disable vehicles like BF, we wanted object manipulation to create cover, etc.

What he did in his indie game had lots of fun ingredients, just took too long to build, and was still very clunky when shown.

Quote from blackdog

1 hour ago, blackdog said: In every recount I’ve heard, Gooseman never blamed Valve for anything, he says in this interview at 16 min that he couldn’t work with the restrictions the community creates. Not sure how that translates in mandare in the company, but I remember he always talked about having lots of freedom. I think to remember, maybe from elsewhere -there are several interviews he has done- that he felt too under pressure to deliver the sequel.

I don’t know, i played so much the original GoldSrc mods, still I was just a casual player and as such I wanted fun stuff added to the games, I remember fantasising with my friends what would be possible in DoD and CS thanks to the new physics engine: we wanted the disable vehicles like BF, we wanted object manipulation to create cover, etc.

What he did in his indie game had lots of fun ingredients, just took too long to build, and was still very clunky when shown.

It was some HLTV interview from 2011 or 2010, he said Valve wouldn't let him or cliffe make changes they wanted to make when Source was still be updating because Valve was afraid of the community getting miffed. He also implied other projects in the company were constantly getting in front of Counter Strike 2 going into full development.

Anyhow, I had put a pin into this because I couldn't reply on the phone, but haven't been using the PC at home lately either

Quote from Interfearance

On 10/17/2019 at 11:25 PM, Interfearance said: @blackdog I for one am not really too opposed to the platform because the old one was pretty hard and more of a novelty than a reliable route. It is a good part to experiment on. This iterative mapping based on feedback reminds me: Why is stopping Valve from trying to find ways to balance unpopular maps like Train and Nuke?

I can't make the jump, have never practised it, so it doesn't phase me. Without playing the map, my take is that the cubby is too protected and the platform is a good excuse to put a fence there to make it shallower.

For the question, I guess we would all like to be Valve employees to know the answer! ? I guess the ever-shifting manpower allowed by Valve's structure doesn't help. But hey! This iterative approach is the one they've taken with Vertigo, so one would think this is what they'll do with Mirage, or whatever map gets reworked next.

Popularity argument: I had to look this up because I haven't followed the tournaments closely, it felt every time I tuned in I would see (in order of frequency): Train, Nuke, Overpass, Mirage, Inferno... but the numbers say it's actually the other way around, with D2 to be the most played. Would be interesting to see a breakdown by tournament phase, I mean do the most played maps get those numbers thanks to the BO1 and fall-off in the play-offs?

Balance: do we actually need to balance the maps to be as close to 50-50%? I remember at the time I was playing CS:S for fun (with a clan, but we didn't know what we were doing) that I used to be very mad when an imbalanced map like Aztec was voted next... but nowadays it seems to me that these maps fit nicely in the overall experience offering good stories (comeback!11) and in the contest of a pro-tournament are part of the strategy of a match in the map-pick mind-game: you float, you pick? And you can use it at your advantage doing what Astralis did with Nuke: perfect the T side that nobody wants to play and win the map right there and then.

Check this out:

• Mirage and Dust 2 were "imbalanced" as much as Nuke in 2018
• Mirage and Dust 2 in 2018 were "imbalanced" as much as Overpass is in 2019
• Train in 2019 has a 4% higher delta compared to 2018, but then was as imbalanced as Nuke in 2019
• Mirage, Nuke, Overpass are within a 5 matches delta, Dust 2 was favoured only 20 matches more than these in 2019, while in 2018 the two most played maps lead the others by ~100 matches!
• Cache is the only map really favouring Ts
• Vertigo is almost perfect 50-50 but nobody picks it anyway

Source:

• Map pool in 2018 https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps?sta…hType=BigEvents
• Map pool in the last 6 months of 2019 https://www.hltv.org/stats/maps?sta…hType=BigEvents

What those maps have in common? Except Vertigo, they haven't been substantially updated in the last two years (Nuke update was in Feb 2018).

So what to make of all this and answer your question @Interfearance?

1. I think that the perception of how well balanced maps are is probably wrong (eye test) given that the balance of maps shifts overtime as pros come up with new solutions despite the maps being unchanged;
2. Manpower;
3. I think Valve can't make substantial gameplay changes to more than two maps per year, but unless some unintended abuse surfaces, they want to keep it to one map, especially with an iterative approach, so that pros have always something to fall back to, otherwise teams would end up permabanning both the updated maps making it for boring tournaments and Valve not getting any data to improve the maps;
4. A style choice: the current rate of updates encourages a tactical gameplay, which is the trait of CS; if you were to substantially refresh the maps more frequently than once every two years, you would favour teams rich in raw aiming skill, you would encourage orgs to create "super-teams" and the result would be a scene much similar to COD;
5. Balance is also altered with weapon ballistics and economy, because all of a sudden you can encourage a certain type of engagement;
6. Valve is also dealing with an ever-increasing e-sports scene, forget the competition from other games, there's still so much money on the line and companies are trying to cut bigger shares with exclusive, longer tournaments; there's the prospect of Majors not being the most prestigious award to get... so when you put all of this into perspective, updating a map can easily fall way behind in the priorities.

@FMPONE and Sal made the argument of "seasons" way back in 2015, and I had the same feeling as a casual player: I really didn't like that what I can play is determined by what pros deem "worthy". Nowadays, having followed the pro scene in the last couple of years, I'm quite happy because teams don't perfect strategies in less than 6 months. I can also try to emulate tricks the pros do, much alike when playing basketball I would emulate tricks I saw the NBA players do. Right now what I'd like to see would be for Valve to rotate one map every year, giving to the new entry a minimum two year window of service. Also I'd love them to give a chance to community maps and promote them to the big leagues, but I can see very well how that is problematic (just think that if they didn't acquire or at least temporarily license the map, they couldn't guarantee the necessary updates the pro scene would drive).

de_cache for China

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Hey I was messing around offline and I noticed you changed all the textures that previously had muck as their material to dirt/concrete. I was curious if this was intentional and if so why as I cant find it listed in any of the change notes.

I also saw this weird brace made out of dust2 crates has its material set to sand for some reason. Again I wasnt sure if that was international or not

Quote from FMPONE

On 12/20/2019 at 4:17 AM, FMPONE said: The sand one is probably a mistake, I’ll fix that. Probably related to WallWorm material selection default or something. The mud was indeed deliberate as you slide on mud, not intended and bad for gameplay. Makes a nice sound though.

Oh did you use WallWorm? Is it just for some models or you redid the whole map in it? Or you can edit the original with it?

Quote from FMPONE

On 12/21/2019 at 5:44 PM, FMPONE said: Yes, I used WallWorm for every model in the new Cache. It’s an excellent tool that I highly recommend, I don’t even want to know how people managed without it because I’m sure it was painful

Just make the map and its details as a single model in sketchup and then manually copy and paste each vertex coordinate into a vmf.

Hey I was playing on Cache today and noticed these toxic barrels were not making the right sound, their material is set to default right now and as a result some weapons can wallbang them that perhaps shouldnt, considering their metal barrels.