What is the best game to create maps for?

Serious question, multifaceted answer, if you'll excuse the geometric pun. At a quandary, basically.

I like the UT4 Alpha, but find it hard to justify expenditure of time on a game which so few people play and therefore is difficult to get feedback for.

CS:GO/SDK is interesting, has lots of players, but lacks scope environmentally and feels constrained.

TF2/SDK is kinda the same, but with lots more flair - but is ageing now, and like CS:GO, feels constrained and restrictive, or perhaps a little too well-trodden?

So, looking for something which allows me to map. Something which no one is making maps for now, but has a big and active community for, yet is not so old that the game mechanics have worn holes in the carpets for routes which everyone takes, as part of the game mechanics. I'm also looking for something which is not going to be replaced (tech-wise) soon.

Ideas? Opinions? Thoughts? Beliefs?

Quote from Pampers

29 minutes ago, Pampers said: What is your goal? learn a new editor, have something that people will play? portfolio piece? level design or art focus?

Which game, basically. But yes, all the things you mention, but primarily that people will play which is 'current gen'.

Focus on mapping.

Quote from Vaya

1 hour ago, Vaya said: Tetris

Funny...

Odd thing is this: IF I were to take Tetris as a theme for something like TF2, I can garuntee you such a map already exists and any effort by me would be nullified in a matter of days. And that is part of the problem, is it not? You take a theme, and for something like Counter Strike - it has already been done. That's one of the problems when mapping for a well-trodden game mechanic, no matter what you map, people will say that it is 'like XYZ map' because maps are always designed around game mechanics, player speed and weapon design. You can therefore end up with cookie cutter designs at a white-box paradigm of acceptability for the game. Yes, one can add amazing art etc, but none of that matters if no one plays it because it does not make best use of the game: Hence, which is the best game to create maps for?

If I were to say 'TF2 map, CTF, Tetris' you can all see it, can't you?

Back on point, I'll take a look at Natural Selection 2 - how is the editor?

Quote from tomm

16 hours ago, tomm said: you can pick an existing theme and do it better, or worse, it's all about the execution anyway.

and when it comes to csgo I don't see how it feels constrained in any way, plenty of people here on the forums are pushing the boundaries of what's possible in csgo with their creativity. Just have a look at some of the recently released maps.

and why do you care so much about what people say about the map? just try to enjoy the process, you can't please everyone.

I completely agree with your final point, but to answer your question; because I want to improve, get better and have a long term iterative process with detailed feedback to further design. I am not the one to decide whether a map is good or not, the community and my peers are. That's kind of a platitude, I'll admit, but it happens to be something I believe in.

CS:GO is an extremely nuanced game, which has been honed over a very long period of time. Dust_2 is how old? There are players on the circuit now who are younger than that design. In part, as morbid as it seems, this to me (and I will humbly be corrected in the face of my peers) means the 'optimal' map in terms of design has been done, and all maps are measured against it. So, it's a figurative statement I make when I say that level/map design for CS:GO is 'dead'. That is not to say that one cannot create an amazing map and it is certainly not to say the game itself is 'dead' as CS:GO is awesome fun, it's more about creating something without having the large, planet-sized shadow of other maps.

Perhaps I am projecting, but if I had the choice over a new map for ten minutes, or play Dust_2 for one hour, I would pick Dust_2.

Still thinking about this, more thoughts from the community help.

Quote from Thrik

2 hours ago, Thrik said: I always find it the most fun to do anything creative if it's in the context of something that I'm passionate about. So while you could probably map for any old game and enjoy it, if you map for a game you enjoy playing — You play games, right? — then you're much more likely to feel invested in it and can even have a great time playing it alongside the people you're making it for. That's the beauty of doing hobby projects, because you don't have to just develop what you're told to.

More than happy to offer beer to that, 'sir - that is the kind of comment the internet sorely lacks!

I do play games, but have spent a long time playing games part-time and definitely fall into the 'hobbiest' category for level design.

Side topic (maybe not) why is the CryEngine5 is not being used so much for whiteboxing, or full-on level design - the 'designer tool' (playing with it as we speak) seems a decade forward than other tools on other engines....?

Just spent the last few days tinkering with CS:GO SDK and I believe I have come to the conclusion that CS:GO is not something I want to map for, I just detest Hammer.

My reasons for this are mainly to do with the clunky interface, lack of a decent BSP tool and lack of PIE functions.

Just to frame this for you, I have spent the last 18 months using UE4 and with a five year break, UDK prior to that for roughly a year. So, I am too accustomed to additive/subtractive environments, and not pure additive designs. The amount of times I was thinking 'So let me get this straight, if I want to move that window/door at the blocking stage, I have to redesign the entire wall??? - Why can't I just punch a window/door shape into the wall???'

I've read comments from people over the years talking about how awesome they find it, but kept being reminded about the times I tried to map from about 2005 onwards with Hammer and being continually frustrated with it. The lack of workarounds is also a barrier for me, where there does not (on the surface) appear to be any form of geometric 'toying' which one can do. This is hard to explain, but I guess I have become accustomed to having 50 ways of achieving the same results at a blocking stage With CS:GO SDK it seems there is one way, and that's it - do it that way or it won't compile.

Gonna give it another try over the weekend and also CE5 experimentation for brush/map work, too - but unless I find a pull down which lets me customise stuff to work the way I want it too, I think it will get buried until Source2.

Kinda wish UE4 had more games people were playing for it, where I could go to map...anyone?

Quote from Pampers

1 hour ago, Pampers said: Spend less time writing novels theorizing and thinking about what to do (that's @blackdog job :):):):):):):) ) and just pick one and get cracking!

Totally - I can be quite rambolic and tangential...sorry

I have contacted the Sn. Producer of a UE4-based shooter today about level design for their game, which looks about 6-12 months away from being released.

On top of this, as mentioned I am still interested in CS:GO, but will probably keep searching for a better tool to work with (or game, more importantly!) or a UE4-based shooter.