[WIP] de_canaveral

    Quote from baem123

    a more realistic option could be a photonic propulsion laser launchpad.

    this technique allows us to push a 100kg unit to mars within some days. and its feasible with the technology we have today.

    nasa video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCDuAiA6kX0

    Those americans! They think they are the only one doing things in the world (that guy made me laugh when he talked about Ligo's mirrors ^^ Have you listened to the conference? so few concrete infos to really take that too serisouly) ANyway, that will be at NiHil's to decide for his artistic approach :)

    Hey everybody, thanks for sticking around. I finally had the time to put together a first greybox. Here's a couple screenshots!

    [Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/4RkiINA.png]

    [Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/dFOmKdI.png]

    Some timings are still off and there are indeed some very bad sight lines still present (like the one @Goatacus pointed out, thanks) so there's still more to do. Roofs are missing, the map is not going to be open like that obviously. :)

    Any thoughts?

    It looks really small. Just for reference, what are your rough timings ?

    Edit: And may I please have the bsp for this one ? I would really love to run around for myself, looking at everything!

    Yeah, as I said, timings are off. Rotation between the bombsites is short but okay (+/- ~1 second compared to Dust 2 and Cache) but T spawn to A/B is extremely fast. CTs ARE even faster but still, this makes for an extremely small map. I'm currently thinking of ways to extend the space between A/B and T spawn in a meaningful way.

    I will definitely release the greybox version and post about that here, just ironing out the really obvious problems first!

    Cheers!

    Alright, excuse the double post. Here's a new version.

    [Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/FpTG4EC.png]

    Please let me know what you think! I added some callouts so we can talk about the layout more easily. Because it's hard to see in the image: the basement is only connected at the north and south-west (to lobby and mid respectively), not to B.

    The sight line from T spawn through lobby, through main, into B is still problematic but it seems fixable with props or other vision occluders.

    Quote from NihiL

    9 hours ago, NihiL said: Alright, excuse the double post. Here's a new version.

    [Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/FpTG4EC.png]

    Please let me know what you think! I added some callouts so we can talk about the layout more easily. Because it's hard to see in the image: the basement is only connected at the north and south-west (to lobby and mid respectively), not to B.

    The sight line from T spawn through lobby, through main, into B is still problematic but it seems fixable with props or other vision occluders.

    I know this is only pictures and I still don't have an accurate scale measure, but I feel like the two entrances from B are basically still one. There is only one rather narrow-looking (and probably smokable) entry from CT, before the path splits into two. So Ts can just push in there after taking the site, smoke off CT and then wait in one of the two arms for any CT coming from Main (the only path left). Also I don't like the new path from T to outside. a) it's a superlong sightline (same goes for CT to A) and b) it doesn't allow for smooth rotations from A to B, because you have to go all the way around through T Spawn. Maybe just connect mid and T to outside at their common wall. This way Ts have a second concealed way into mid (read further down the post to understand how that would be balanced!), which still doesn't pop them out right in the CTs face.

    And here is another MS Paint edit with problematic lines of sight I imagine there are:

    - blue are sightlines , mostly very T sided (all except the one from control room probably)

    - S = problematic smokes (the one marked with a two is probably hard to land for CTs since there is no straight wall to bounce it off and it's up a stair!

    - the red arrows indicate areas I don't like, thanks to their stretched narrow nature (same goes for ramp)

    - also Main seems comparatively small and Ts should be able to come down ramp without being seen from the back of the site, just for smoothness of gameplay. By the way, where exactly is B Site ? Is it all around the rocket or is it back towards CT ?

    - I am not sure whether I like the basement as it is. It offers Ts a really good way into mid, because to peak it CTs are going to have to move up rather far from control room (again here I don't know about the scale of things so this may not be as bad as I think it is!). But on the other side, it doesn't seem to provide any great use for CTs for a flankaround or rotation from one site to the other. So in this constellation of basement and mid I feel like Ts immediately get control of almost all the map. My idea to fix this is to connect both basement and the second B entrypoint (the top-one) to control room (instead of to where they are connected atm), offering CTs a good early push and Ts a good reward for breaking through. Also your retake problem for B is thereby made less severe (imho). With this version you have to be careful of sightlines from B into control room though!

    I hope this helps :) !

    Cheers!

    First of all, as always, thank you very much for your continued input, @Freaky_Banana! That's exactly what I'm looking for at this stage of the project!

    Sorry that it took me a while to put this update together but I had to first read and understand your points, then come up with - hopefully - adequate solutions for those points you made that I agreed with, then map it all out and make the post!

    Let me go through your points and then present layout version 4!

    1.) The two entrances into B from CT: I agree absolutely, that wasn't very well thought out. I really liked the idea of connected the west entrance into B to the control room instead so I did that. This way Ts can not just smoke off two entrances after a bombsite take for the price of one!

    2.) The connection from T to outside: Yeah, that was a very long sightline, which I also didn't like. I am not a fan of connecting that hallway to mid (see number 4 below for reasoning) so I broke up the sightline and worked around it differently. Ts that want to rotate away from a bombsite to the other now either use mid if they have control over it or - if they don't - they at least can just go through lobby and don't have to go through the actual T spawn anymore. I'm happy with that because I do think it's good CS map design when Ts do get punished somewhat for failing to take a bombsite AND not holding mid either (happens a lot on D2 when bad teams try and go B, first guy gets mowed down and then they just stand in upper tunnels - that's the punishment that I quite like).

    3.) Sightlines in your image: Absolutely agree these were issues. I'm hopeful I managed to fix them all in the new layout below.

    4.) Mid and basement: The way I see mid working right now is pretty much like on Mirage with mid and underpass there. Ts have a main entrance to mid (via lobby) and they have control over basement (underpass on Mirage). These are their tools to take mid control. If I added another path into mid, they'd have 3 entrances to mid and that I don't like, seems too much to me. CTs can push basement just like on Mirage but it only works as a surprise play because they expose themselves if they want to get into there, as you said. I changed the connections in the new layout accordingly: the south-east exit out of mid now is connected via the basement to the T side and the west entrance into B is connected to control room. I did not agree with adding a third connection in basement to the bombsite B as that would also give Ts three direct ways into B where they wouldn't be contested in any of them, making B pushes too strong.

    5.) Main: Agreed, I made it bigger and made sure that Ts can come down the ramp (the path on the north-east into main) without being spotted by any CT playing a defensive position at the bombsite. They only get seen if they swing out wide towards the south-east in main. I think that's pretty good.

    The actual bombsite zone in B is going to be towards the south end of the middle rocket btw!

    Alright, here's version 4:

    [Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/2NuRXzi.png]

    Any further input would be greatly appreciated please! I will release a playable version on the Steam workshop very soon, stay tuned for that!

    Myself, I'm pretty happy with the layout so far. Only thing is, and you mentioned this @Freaky_Banana, Ts have little incentive to take mid. In fact, mid isn't really a classic mid in this layout, as it's not directly connected to B. It's really more like a second way to take A... I'm not convinced this is an issue though. Thoughts?

    If I look at the overview the basement connector is gonna be a problem. It will be a pain in the ass for CT to hold mid. The angle of the basement to the midle is weird, CT will be suprised if they stand at the control room looking into mid. When they stand from A to mid, they have a better angle but will be very vulnerable from T spawn.

    U maybe could fix this by making the control room closed and add a window, let it be a dropper / boostpoint or something. Like Mirage has really haha. This will also put more prevention for T's to backstab CT through the CT spawn. Maybe even put something they have to break what make noise to warn the CT's if they boost idk.. be creative ;)

    Another solution could be to remove the basement part and add the connector from B main to midle at the height of the text: (mid) in 'exhib hall (mid)'. or maybe a tunnel from this point to A outsite (so u walk below the midle to A). Tho I aint a real big fan of that, I had problem pulling this off nicely on my owns maps. But yea these are just ideas, Maybe u can do some with it


    Edit: And another thing, the paths to B bombsite. I dislike the long path to the balcony, plz make main and balcony 1 path and let them split up at the height of the text 'Main'. Imagine when they rush balcony and a molotov gets thrown, u gotta run all the way back to T spawn and try something else. With this idea u can fall back and try B main or what ever, easier to split up aswell. It will make the map a litle more dynamic for T's

    Hey, thanks for the input @Roald! Let me address your points:

    1.) The way the basement connects to mid: I agree with everything you're saying BUT that's because I wanted it to be exactly like that! I want it to be awkward for just 1 CT to hold mid because otherwise I feel it is too simple. The way I designed the map, I would expect 1 CT on A holding the only direct entrance (outside), 1 CT in A short, watching the connection from basement to mid, 1 CT in mid looking across to the T side (lobby) and then 2 CTs on B, one holding main, one holding balcony. I made a little picture here as well:

    [Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/ixfhAET.png]

    This way the guy at A short can always turn around and help out with defending A site but mid isn't looked down by a single CT either. Note that the two B players could be positioned in lots of different ways btw, not necessarily exactly like that. With this setup the actual mid player could give info to his A short player if everything is clear at mid and then that player can rotate from A short down to basement (covered by the proper mid player) to push and get info and the mid guy can still help out at A etc. That was my plan for the CT setup.

    If I made mid easy to hold with one CT, a 2-1-2 static setup would be optimal and I feel that's too simple. That's something to test out during playtesting I guess. Does that make sense?

    2.) Splitting off main and balcony later: I absolutely get where you're coming from again with the idea but there's two issues that I see with it: the first one is something you can't really see well in the overview images but there's a big height difference here. The balcony is 128+ units higher than main, so I would have to either make a ramp (but there's no space there to reach into main from the east side) or a ladder (there's already a ladder at balcony in the B bombsite right next to it so I also want to avoid that). And the second reason is that while it's true that a molly into balcony will stop any T players dead in their tracks for the duration of the flames, I like exactly that! Again, like balcony on Mirage. If it doesn't work because the CTs anticipated your play, you either wait and communicate that to your other players at main or you push through. I like that that's pretty tactical. And if you pull back, the map punishes you, again just like palace on Mirage. If I link everything up at that one point (main), then it becomes less tactical in my eyes.

    Also, if everything was linked at main, it would make a CT push into main with flashes/smokes extremely strong as any CTs holding main would block off the entire B bombsite from any attacks by just sitting in one single spot where everything is routed through for the Ts. That's currently not possible because of the depth of the paths towards B from the T side.

    What I will definitely do, however, is avoid having hallways that look like long empty path - maybe that's a big issue here visually. I can make rooms and lots of visual detail that you just can't access to make it look less boring and hallway-like on that route to balcony. Same goes for CT to A!


    I hope I don't come across as overly defensive because I didn't agree with either of your two issues to the point where I made a change in the layout so far. Please do continue to make your point(s) @Roald and others! And if I'm wrong with any of my justifications in this post, let me know!

    Its a good thing u thought about this and support your own ideas. And yea u should playtest it to see if it works like u want it to work and how players experience it. From this moment it will be adjusting and testing untill it works for you and csgo players in general

    Quote from NihiL

    2 hours ago, NihiL said: Okay, the very first version of the graybox is now playable on the Steam workshop.

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/fi…s/?id=775263894

    Please give it a try and let me know what you think, what you'd like to see changed and so on.

    [Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/HYxLSX7.jpg]

    [Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/yoGy5Y4.jpg]

    At this point we really need cover! It's too wide, open and bland. Also I feel like the entrance to basement from mid is way too wide, for a cheeky second path into mid. I feel the same for the entrance to basement from A main. Also I think it has too much verticality. I would either split the ramps into two horizontally, to achieve the same verticality as you have now, or you just lower the verticality. All these ideas are under the assumption, that basement is supposed to feel like Overpass's connector area. Instead you could also just leave everything as is (except for the width of basement's exit to mid, which definitely has to be tightened up), and make it a supply ramp as the one on Nuke.

    Cheers!

    Hey, sorry again for the late reply to your points, I was hoping to collect a bit more feedback from multiple people now that the playable graybox version is out there, but since there doesn't seem to be any more coming in...

    Yeah, cover is the next step for the layout. More brushwork and preliminary detail (just not the purely visual stuff yet I guess).

    I can fine tune the width of the basement to mid 'tunnel', although I would probably wait for playtesting feedback before I do that. I like space so unless it is indeed necessary to tighten that gap to improve gameplay, I would leave it as is. Easy to change either way.

    About the verticality: right now it's deep enough so that we get 128 units of vertical space in the basement. That's my minimum for a proper floor with good movement, so I don't really want to reduce that (it would make players unable to jump then) but I wouldn't mind splitting the ramps up. In the final map, these will be stairs btw. Not sure what you mean with "make it a supply ramp as the one on Nuke" exactly? That's just a wide ramp?

    Thanks for the input. There's still some angles in there that I don't think are very good. I will be taking screenshots of these for myself and then fix them. Also I want to make a separate test room or hall for visual stuff. Figure out a good style, custom textures and models included, that I can use as a baseline for the space agency architecture. I already have a bunch of reference photos for that. I will share the results as soon as they're done.

    Does it seem like this forum is more dead than it used to be a year ago? Is that just me, is it the non-CSGO map contest or the dwindling playerbase?

    Idk I am kinda new to the community, but this is what it is in most topics.

    I suggest to just have a playtest already and see how that goes.

    You could also go for TopHattWaffel's 5 vs 5 playtest and test some basic stuff like cover spots, angles, timings, balance and etc (or ask friends?). This means u should work some more on ur map and get all basics right.

    Afther that update your map, maybe get feedback here on screenshots and etc and then ask for a playtest on mapcore.

    Hey NihiL! I have a few things to say about the map.

    One, it seems k me to be quite small. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, and when details are added it can change how big the map appears, but it does feel a little cramped in places like B site.

    Two, a reason you may not have much feedback could be due to a lack of cover. It's hard to get a feel for a map that hasn't got cover, as you can only really theorise how the map will play, which changes wildly depending on where the cover is placed. My advice would be to update it to add cover and submit it for playtesting with TopHattWaffle, Reddit, and here, Mapcore. That way we can get a feel for how the map plays and we can leave better feedback.

    It looks good though, keep it up :D

    I certainly won't tell you what kind of map to make or anything like that, but I want to let you know that TopHattWaffle and I are also building a map with a missile silo in it.

    Here is a Wip shot of the silo.

    Removed screenshot, PM'd OP

    Nah I didn't mention the name or anything, and it's not currently available anywhere. It seems like he's going in a pretty different direction anyway. Don't worry though I'll pimp plenty when we're ready to release. :P

Participate now!

Don’t have an account yet? Register yourself now and be a part of our community!

Register Yourself Login