5 hours ago, LizardPL said: Why you ppl always try to neglect every report/chart ?
B/c some ppl (hopefully) developed a critical mind to avoid ignorance such as the chart that has just been shared. Charts, surveys are tools used to brain wash and cleft ppl. Build your opinion from false information is easy. Shortcut, generalities while we need time to understand the complexity of our world. But ppl don't have time. (except HL3 dev :p)
19 hours ago, LizardPL said: How can you explain a muslim store owner being chopped to pieces by another muslims just because he twitted "happy easter to my catholic clients". Will you justify that with societal, economical and political reasons ? They are simply crazy. Its all about thier value system being different.
It's fucked up. The guy who killed him must be a religious fanatic and a lunatic. I hate these people. It's especially tragic, because the store owner seemed to be a caring, much-loved individual and well-respected by the community he was living in. But you do realize that the store owner was also Muslim, right? I mean, you mention it, but then you go on to call "all" Muslims crazy...
See, in Germany, the regions that are the most against immigration are the ones with the lowest population of Muslims. It's funny because if all Muslims were violent fanatics then you would think that their Christian and atheist neighbors would be the first to complain about them. But instead it's the people who are afraid of the foreign(ers). And sadly these people also generalize a lot. I guess this can be seen at a bigger scale in all of Europe nowadays.
@laminutederire: Except for hundreds of thousands of Jews who fled their home countries? And who can blame them? Or the Syrian refugees? If my family and me were eating grass in Aleppo because Assad's troops are sieging the city for weeks or my town is about to be overrun by psychopaths who threaten to cut off our heads or enslave my wife then, hell yes, I would try to get the fuck away. And I think there is no shame in doing that. There are by the way a substantial amount of Syrians who picked up the fight against the dictator AND the religious fanatics and see how well that has worked out so far.
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for open borders for everyone regardless of origin and without registration and background-checks. And I'm concerned about integration, too. But the other extreme of taking NOBODY in is IMO ice cold, inhumane and I won't stand for it,
Quote from FrieChamp25 minutes ago, FrieChamp said: It's fucked up. The guy who killed him must be a religious fanatic and a lunatic. I hate these people. It's especially tragic, because the store owner seemed to be a caring, much-loved individual and well-respected by the community he was living in. But you do realize that the store owner was also Muslim, right? I mean, you mention it, but then you go on to call "all" Muslims crazy...
See, in Germany, the regions that are the most against immigration are the ones with the lowest population of Muslims. It's funny because if all Muslims were violent fanatics then you would think that their Christian and atheist neighbors would be the first to complain about them. But instead it's the people who are afraid of the foreign(ers). And sadly these people also generalize a lot. I guess this can be seen at a bigger scale in all of Europe nowadays.
@laminutederire: Except for hundreds of thousands of Jews who fled their home countries? And who can blame them? Or the Syrian refugees? If my family and me were eating grass in Aleppo because Assad's troops are sieging the city for weeks or my town is about to be overrun by psychopaths who threaten to cut off our heads or enslave my wife then, hell yes, I would try to get the fuck away. And I think there is no shame in doing that. There are by the way a substantial amount of Syrians who picked up the fight against the dictator AND the religious fanatics and see how well that has worked out so far.
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for open borders for everyone regardless of origin and without registration and background-checks. And I'm concerned about integration, too. But the other extreme of taking NOBODY in is IMO ice cold, inhumane and I won't stand for it,
I don't blame anyone, but personnally I'd rather die a hero than run away like that. I know it isn't easy, but when everyone flees like that it just gives the bad peoples there with all the power. But hey that's our fault as well since we all pay for those atrocities with oil buys etc.
However, you're right about two things, the more unaccustomed people are, the more racists they can become. And of course the main issue is integration. It always have been the issue with large immigration movements. For instance in France we had that issue with a part of Romanian immigrans who came here with no intend to integrate themselves in te society, and that causes a lot of issues. And the issue nowadays with the syrian immiggrants is that they come here mostly to be safe, and not to be part of Europe. Of course some want to blend in etc, but the fact that they come as an enormous flow, doesn't help them integrate or even want to integrate themselves. That's why accepting everyone like that isn't a solution. If anything we should place those peoples with an uniform repartition over the Europe, and let them know that this kind of support isn't going to be lasting forever unless they become a real part of the society. That would give them a chance to be safe while the situation is been solved, and also repopulate Syria afterwards.
Quote from FrieChamp1 hour ago, FrieChamp said: It's fucked up. The guy who killed him must be a religious fanatic and a lunatic. I hate these people. It's especially tragic, because the store owner seemed to be a caring, much-loved individual and well-respected by the community he was living in. But you do realize that the store owner was also Muslim, right? I mean, you mention it, but then you go on to call "all" Muslims crazy...
See, in Germany, the regions that are the most against immigration are the ones with the lowest population of Muslims. It's funny because if all Muslims were violent fanatics then you would think that their Christian and atheist neighbors would be the first to complain about them. But instead it's the people who are afraid of the foreign(ers). And sadly these people also generalize a lot. I guess this can be seen at a bigger scale in all of Europe nowadays.
@laminutederire: Except for hundreds of thousands of Jews who fled their home countries? And who can blame them? Or the Syrian refugees? If my family and me were eating grass in Aleppo because Assad's troops are sieging the city for weeks or my town is about to be overrun by psychopaths who threaten to cut off our heads or enslave my wife then, hell yes, I would try to get the fuck away. And I think there is no shame in doing that. There are by the way a substantial amount of Syrians who picked up the fight against the dictator AND the religious fanatics and see how well that has worked out so far.
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for open borders for everyone regardless of origin and without registration and background-checks. And I'm concerned about integration, too. But the other extreme of taking NOBODY in is IMO ice cold, inhumane and I won't stand for it,
Yes forgot to mention that the store owner was a muslim. I misspoken there. Sorry.
You guys are bringing a good point here.
If all refugees would fight for their country like they fight with border services Syria would be free now. They are cowards thats all. How can you imagine these ppl care about your country if they dont care about theirs?
Quote from FrieChamp3 hours ago, FrieChamp said: @laminutederireSee, in Germany, the regions that are the most against immigration are the ones with the lowest population of Muslims. It's funny because if all Muslims were violent fanatics then you would think that their Christian and atheist neighbors would be the first to complain about them. But instead it's the people who are afraid of the foreign(ers). And sadly these people also generalize a lot. I guess this can be seen at a bigger scale in all of Europe nowadays.
That's a bit of a fallacy. Of course you have less opposition to muslimic immigration where a large amount of the voters already have a muslimic background. And even then the picture isn't as clear cut. When you take a closer look at the local voting results it shows that the right wing party actualy gets more votes in the more multicultural areas, contrary to what the left always preaches. The only exceptions are communities with a strong left wing alternative scene. In the western federal states it was particularey interesting that voters with migration background were more likely to vote AfD then ethnic Germans.
The whole "people in the east don't know muslims therefore they oppose muslims" is a huge misconception if you ask me. It has more to do with people comparing their mostly homogenous and peaceful communities with the often problem ridden multiculral communities in western cities. The wall has been down for 25 years. It's misguided to assume people in the east still live in their own little bubble with no contact and information from the outside world.
Islamic terrorism as the name suggests is islamic and has everything to do with religion, trying to argue otherwise is burying your head in the sand. This is not the same as saying all muslims are extremists and terrorists, which is obviously total rubbish, but there is a longstanding issue within certain branches and communities of islam. Today, islamic terrorism or jihadism is the largest terrorist ideology active globally, I can name over 30 islamist terrorist groups active as we speak, I can name less than 3 Christian ones and they are largely irrelevant in comparison. Whilst the vast majority of muslims are peaceful law abiding people, there are still significant numbers of those that for some reason act as supporters or sympathisers for extremists and terrorist organisations, a problem that isn't present within other religions. Muslims should never have to explain or take responsibility for any terrorist attacks like some people think they should, it's just asinine. I do become irritated however when following an attack and the authorities take action to follow inquiries and make arrests that there are always those who treat the situation as being about "persecution of muslims" or other such tripe. Still we should never try to turn the stakes into a war on Islam itself because that is playing into the hands of Daesh and others alike.
An iman once said that the problem is that it is said in either the Qur'an or the Hadiths (I forget which) that the prophet said that there would come a reformer to bring islam into the new age and that whilst some embrace this, others reject it. This is Wahhabism, the ultra conservative branch of islam which the Saudis retain, promote and spread all over the world. Much of this is about countering Iran's influence on the Middle East following the revolution of 79 in a long drawn out cold war that has been playing out ever since. Unfortunately it also spreads into Europe as well or Wahhabi followers from outside come into the continent and preach their venom and attempt to convert moderates into takfiris.
Indeed part of the issue is the history of colonialism, the creation of Israel and the US presence in the Middle East and of course.. OIL. But a large part is rooted within Islam; Christians do not blow themselves up in Mecca...
Quote from D3ads1 hour ago, D3ads said: Islamic terrorism as the name suggests is islamic and has everything to do with religion, trying to argue otherwise is burying your head in the sand. This is not the same as saying all muslims are extremists and terrorists, which is obviously total rubbish, but there is a longstanding issue within certain branches and communities of islam. Today, islamic terrorism or jihadism is the largest terrorist ideology active globally, I can name over 30 islamist terrorist groups active as we speak, I can name less than 3 Christian ones and they are largely irrelevant in comparison. Whilst the vast majority of muslims are peaceful law abiding people, there are still significant numbers of those that for some reason act as supporters or sympathisers for extremists and terrorist organisations, a problem that isn't present within other religions. Muslims should never have to explain or take responsibility for any terrorist attacks like some people think they should, it's just asinine. I do become irritated however when following an attack and the authorities take action to follow inquiries and make arrests that there are always those who treat the situation as being about "persecution of muslims" or other such tripe. Still we should never try to turn the stakes into a war on Islam itself because that is playing into the hands of Daesh and others alike.
An iman once said that the problem is that it is said in either the Qur'an or the Hadiths (I forget which) that the prophet said that there would come a reformer to bring islam into the new age and that whilst some embrace this, others reject it. This is Wahhabism, the ultra conservative branch of islam which the Saudis retain, promote and spread all over the world. Much of this is about countering Iran's influence on the Middle East following the revolution of 79 in a long drawn out cold war that has been playing out ever since. Unfortunately it also spreads into Europe as well or Wahhabi followers from outside come into the continent and preach their venom and attempt to convert moderates into takfiris.
Indeed part of the issue is the history of colonialism, the creation of Israel and the US presence in the Middle East and of course.. OIL. But a large part is rooted within Islam; Christians do not blow themselves up in Mecca...
Maybe so, but the factors which makes it such a big issue are external factors. If it was only about ideology, we'd laugh about them trying to invade Europe with spears !
But unfortunately, they get both money and weapons to be really dangerous. And theyy seduce people all the more easily that society is messed up.
At least I think that has emerged from the constructive arguments given here the last few days.
I propably should restate what I said earlier by saying that fighting terrorism isn't at all about focusing on the religious aspect.
Quote from 148811 minutes ago, 1488 said: If Salafism/Wahhabism wasn't a thing, there would be virtually no terrorism with Europe.
There will always be stupid people, but the other can protect the world from them !
Quote from Steppenwolf18 hours ago, Steppenwolf said: That's a bit of a fallacy. Of course you have less opposition to muslimic immigration where a large amount of the voters already have a muslimic background. And even then the picture isn't as clear cut. When you take a closer look at the local voting results it shows that the right wing party actualy gets more votes in the more multicultural areas, contrary to what the left always preaches. The only exceptions are communities with a strong left wing alternative scene. In the western federal states it was particularey interesting that voters with migration background were more likely to vote AfD then ethnic Germans.
The whole "people in the east don't know muslims therefore they oppose muslims" is a huge misconception if you ask me. It has more to do with people comparing their mostly homogenous and peaceful communities with the often problem ridden multiculral communities in western cities. The wall has been down for 25 years. It's misguided to assume people in the east still live in their own little bubble with no contact and information from the outside world.
The AfD scored high in cities like Mannheim and Pforzheim but had a much lower success rate in cities like Stuttgart and Ludwighsafen - cities with even higher populations of immigrants. I wouldn't say that these cities have particularly strong left wing alternative scenes. About voters with migration backgrounds more likely to vote for AfD: I heard this was the case in Freiburg, but I am not aware that this is a common thing. What I do know is that the AfD got their most succesful election results in Sachsen Anhalt.
I guess what we can agree on is that clustering many immigrants in few areas doesn't help them getting integrated. This is why I find it cynical when people from areas with close-to-zero immigration rates argue that they don't want to take in ANY Muslims because they don't want their land of flowing milk and honey to turn into a ghetto. I believe if we scattered them more evenly, we would get less problems. And I believe as well that we cannot take in everyone, but what I am concerned with is that some of these "homogenous communities" tend to see any foreigner as an intruder that they have to "defend themselves" against, which sadly often turns into violence or this embarrassment of a political movement such as Pegida in Dresden.
Except for some villages there are no areas with low immigration anymore. My town of 32000 people received 1200 refugees in the last couple months, most of which i assume are muslims. I would think that's about comparable to what similar sized towns in the western federal states had like ten years ago after decades of slow but steady immigration from these parts of the world. That's quite a drastic change of the demographic make-up in such a short time with the projection for the end of the year being in the 3000 range, almost 10% of the population then. I don't know what to tell people who don't see this as a troubling outlook. What's worse is there literally is no work here for these people even if they were allowed and qualified to work. Truth be told i don't see Merkel's plan of "Wir schaffen das" to work in any way, shape or form.
Quote from Steppenwolf30 minutes ago, Steppenwolf said: Except for some villages there are no areas with low immigration anymore. My town of 32000 people received 1200 refugees in the last couple months, most of which i assume are muslims. I would think that's about comparable to what similar sized towns in the western federal states had like ten years ago after decades of slow but steady immigration from these parts of the world. That's quite a drastic change of the demographic make-up in such a short time with the projection for the end of the year being in the 3000 range, almost 10% of the population then. I don't know what to tell people who don't see this as a troubling outlook. What's worse is there literally is no work here for these people even if they were allowed and qualified to work. Truth be told i don't see Merkel's plan of "Wir schaffen das" to work in any way, shape or form.
That's basically why this should be seen only as a temporary solution. A few could stay, but the vast majority of migrants should return there when it will be safer, so in less than 5-10 years if the right things are done.
I don't want to stir up some shit or cause a discussion that goes way out of hand. I just want to know if all our French members and families are ok after these new attacks?
Just read this morning, it's crazy. From the little I know I wouldn't call it an attack but an insane person on the loose(?)
I'll refrain from more colorful comments, I just wish they captured him alive and that certain practices could be re-instated.
Really sad for all those who lost their lives.
no one seems shocked by these attacks anymore...
Thoughts are with the families of the dead.
Shit times
Good thing 60 million euros of the defense budget was used to build a golf course for one privileged school...
Quote from blackdog2 hours ago, blackdog said: Just read this morning, it's crazy. From the little I know I wouldn't call it an attack but an insane person on the loose(?)
Two years back a guy did the same thing to avenge himself from the loss of his job. Fortunately he had a small van and was stopped before making much harm ( I think it was like 30 injured but not any deaths if I remember right). So he might have done something similar, but, of course, Daesh says it's them, because well, it would benefit them that it does, and everyone prefer to blame them without questioning it too much, because that's the easy way to "figure things out".
I have a friend who was there but wasn't harmed in any way, she told me about how badly the medias are handling things, creating an horror climate and everything...
I read about the attack in the news, it's really sad that it happened. I would say more, but out of respect for the victim's families I won't. I hope everyone on here is OK.
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