Are all french people of Mapcore Okay?

Quote from KoKo5oVaR

10 minutes ago, KoKo5oVaR said: The troll alert is flashing RED

Unfortunately people thinking like that aren't trolling, they most of the time think that. Why do you think we have extremism here as well? Our extremism which is nationalism is coming from narrow minded thoughts like that...

I may have misspoked since in france nationalistic wings are the racist one's. So for that I apologize to have made that shortcut which isn't applicable in other countries.

However, if you want to go down that road, there are basically two ways to solve things. Close borders, and begin a throrougly executed war is one of them. Don't get me wrong, the western world can send millions of people to die in wars. It's certainly the easiest way around the issue. The second way is to cut down those terrorists group at their roots. Their roots aren't religion at all. They lie in the imperfections of the capitalistic approach of the world. Daesh lives from that, it's a very profitable company even. Thus it can exist until a better company of that sort arrives, ready to do things even more dangerously, or until the money driven world lets them survive. We all know all the money the USA gave them 5 years ago during the arab spring, as well as we all know all the money Turkey give them for cheap oil. Why do everyone give them money? Because it's the cheapest option, rather than doing things the right way. That's why I stand corrected behind the idea that terrorism will stop the day we will have solved our own problems, because they won't be able to seduce people that way.

I seem to understand I'm one of the few to think that the first option is the worst of the two, but I fear that will always be a temporary solution. But hey, call me narrow minded, but be my guest, we'll see in 20 years how the world will be with both approaches.

It isn't about religion, it is about money and power.

In a world where it is all about that, people are getting neglected and screwed over, as well as plainly ignored and left to die. That's basically the case for the poorest people, let it be in Africa, in the Middle East, everywhere in the world. From that point forward, there are three paths mainly. The first one is the path of anger and vengeance. People are getting screwed over, they want to attack the society and kill it as it is. They want a better life for everyone but doesn't know anything else to achieve that rather than violent vengeance.

A second approach, which is in my opinion Daesh approach, is the pragmatic one. The world has fundamentally wrong values, and the same people who get undermined in life, they want to be in charge, and profit of the system for once. They then use the vices of the system to grow and take over the power. In their case they have no power through righteousness, so they create a climate of instability so that they could benefit from a coup de grâce which will grant them real power. The religious fanatism is then a front for that. It's a way to take advantage of people lost in life, or people who want answers about how to make the world a better place because they are fed up with the current society.

The third path is the path everyone should take, if it was up to me. It is the path where you acknowledge that the world is kinda bad on some points, but you are still seeing that there are some good things in life as well. And you try to build upon what's good for the society, to fight what isn't. From such state of mind come great society entrepreneurs who are trying to rethink or modify the system to make it work in more humane way.

That being said, religion remains a cover for more dark thoughts. It becomes a justification, it becomes a story which is given to make people hope for something and make them do anything for it.

To explain myself more thoroughly, I could talk about the philosophical approach of goodness. A philosopher once shocked his class (it was Comte-Sponville) by asking if a nazi was necessarily doing evil. By that he opened up the never ending question of: can you do evil on purpose? It seems to me that religion is then a tool to make people think they aren't doing evil, because they are supposed to do it for the common good, while they clearly aren't doing that. So it isn't about religion, since religion is a tool, not the idea beneath it.

Final argument would be that: what happens when you ask a Muslim about these attacks? He says to you that these terrorists aren't Muslims, because that's not what the religion they believe in teach them. They can explain to me a Lot better, why the religion terrorists are talking to is like a transvestite posing as Islam, because they can explain to you how against every principle of their religion it is against.

Now you may not be convinced, but these are the rational arguments I have to support why it isn't about religion.

@(HP) from where do these statistics even come from? In my school there are a lot of Muslims, and while they can be annoying making noise late, not a single one has ever been violent with anyone, and not one has ever tried to convert someone to their religion. When you talk about it with them, they acknowledge the fact that what is put under n the name of Islam is messed up, but it isn't the religion they know. They also known it is their duty to change how people talk about that religion, precisely to show that those conservative movements in the middle east are everything but religion. Islamic countries where there really are issues are countries like Dubai, Saudi Arabia etc., countries where women have so limited rights for instance.

I think we won't agree on anything, because we don't mean the same thing for religions. I strongly believe because of what I know of history and society and philosophy, that religion isn't an irrational belief. You can't reason with religions because part of the religion is to set aside rationality for pure belief. Bit the choice to believe in any religion can be put down to rationality,for the sole fact that choosing not to use logic whatsoever is against the core mechanics of the human mind. Once this choice has been made by individuals, or by countries, religions merely act as cultural rules. The non pork policy in many religions comes from an historical reason, and mainly every rule has a logic origin. For all those reason, religion becomes a pre made morality for people who don't want to build their own.

What is happening with terrorists is amorality. They perfectly know that it isn't okay to rape people and kill them, but they do it anyway because they feel like morality hasn't a grasp on the world, and they don't have any duty to have any. That is what I meant when I talked about the fact the world was messed up and that it creates germs for fanatical movements.

Finally, why religion wouldn't be an object submitted to logic? It's an human construction, and therefore it has a particular structure which obeys to logic. I don't say it is the logic we are used to nowadays, but is a form of logic. It's the rationality of Rome or Ancient Greece, which has endured ages all the way to the 18-19th century. I'm talking about induction, the way how science was built upon. Inductive logic can explain lots of religious rules, but we don't see it as logic, because that type of method is fundamentally wrong if you want to access something true. It sometimes work, but science has left that because it would have been stuck to trivial things otherwise. And that may be why today that's what people think about when they think about rationality.

I know I rationalize a lot of things, but while I respect your point of view, and that I stand by mine, I don't think that this is the kind of debate from which will arise the solution to our problems. Solutions will arise from changes on our societies.

Quote from LizardPL

1 hour ago, LizardPL said: How can you explain a muslim store owner being chopped to pieces by another muslims just because he twitted "happy easter to my catholic clients". Will you justify that with societal, economical and political reasons ? They are simply crazy. Its all about thier value system being different.

First of all:

How can you explain a less than 10 years old kid killing his mother by shooting her with a gun, just because she idolized her kid's ability to aim? (I happened in the US a few weeks back) Because western people are all crazy? Not at all. You can't just generalize from one example.

Secondly, the societal, economics and political reasons explain why they get brainwashed by extremists people. They explain why they would do such an absurdity for the name of a religion they don't really know and follow. They don't explain the act itself, but why people would get to a state of mind where they could believe things which would make them do such things.

Quote from Bevielis

3 minutes ago, Bevielis said: " You can't just generalize from one example. "

Allah is just, allah is swift.

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What is the source behind that chart?

I see the url at the bottom; but I don't see where they get their figures from.

@Vorontsov, maybe so, but not because they're muslims, but because they're religious. I can find a lot of examples like that in the Catholic conservative branch, which is really messed up with the extreme right wing, at least where I come from.

@Bevielis, @LizardPL I'm just used to have to verify sources because in science I often came upon fraudulent work on the Internet, saying false things.

As for the migrant crisis, I don't really see how it connects that closely to ISIS, I don't know if the Terrorists were part of the migrant move, but I don't think so. In the past, they mostly were western citizens being brainwashed there and when they got back they caused problems. That crisis certainly don't help, but if it was up to me, I'd let them go to the UK since they want to go there and well the UK makes the other countries pay for the expenses of us not letting them to go there. I'd also ne mindful of the schengen space agreement, those at the borders have to do what's needed to have the control on who is getting in, and who isn't. (And when I hear about Turkey wanting more money to do so, I laugh, because they won't do anything. ) once everyone will have their duties straight, there will be more control over the situation. And to me rejecting most of the people fleeing their country wouldn't be an inhumane thing to do, because fleeing has never been an option, for their country to go better they have to stay.

Anyway, it's a bit off-topic.

From what you guys say, I have to answer that yeah there are some issues with the Muslims populations, but thecauses of that aren't written in their sacred book. To me, it's more of a misinterpretation due to a lack of education, especially to philosophy, which is the pillar of the human right, and that people who don't understand it, mostly do so because of lack of intellectual awareness about the notions underlying it.

Sadly, everyone in Europe isn't understanding those either, but they comply more easily because of law obediance, and therefore don't cause much issues.