de_kp_labs

    First a big shout out to FMPONE, Mapcore and everyone else that was able to make this contest possible; very exciting indeed. That said I'm officially entering de_kp_labs. I've made a bunch of progress recently but feel like I need to playtest soon as I don't want to start my art passes until I'm near certain the routes will not change dramatically.

    The map takes place at a chemical processing plant / refinery. This ultimately will be the first of a 2 map set that take place at this facility. This map being the outdoor portion; the next map will continue the theme and take place indoors (possibly a hostage map, idk that's still in the air). I don't plan on submitting the indoor map for the contest as I simply don't have the time to get them both done by the deadline.

    So a little bit about this map. In the current version the layout and timings seems to work competitive play. I have not started any real effort on the art passes so don't expect too much in the eye candy department just yet. I have replaced most of the dev textures with base textures (primarily using assets from the new train and nuke) I have only recently started placing model assests and it's starting to take shape but still has a long way away from being finished (thank goodness for extra month extension). Most of the cover spots are set but if you have any suggestions I would love to hear from you. Currently I'm having issues with the B site; it seems to be a bit too open at the moment. Looking for ways to help make that area more playable be it through adding more cover, or changing up layout / world geometry.

    Take a look at the workshop page for the changelogs. I will try to keep this page current throughout the development process as well. Please sub and give me a thumbs up if you like it, and remember... I want to hear from you!!! Please give me feedback, the only thing I ask is that you play through the map first. Analyzing screenshot only gets you so far. I'm not too concerned with visuals and aesthetics feedback just yet as the layout and gameplay is what I want to primarily concentrate my efforts on at this stage. But per usual if you have any feedback please leave it. Details, texturing and aesthetic feedback will be much welcomed when I've started with the art passes.

    I will sign up for the official mapcore playtest soon. Hope you all can join, looking forward to your feedback

    Feel free to add my on steam.

    Cheers,
    -KP


    Hi! Nice work overall, I just have some small critiques. First, this is a simple one ,but on A long, the way it is currently set up, the walls direct you the fence, instead of where the CTs are more likely to be which is on the side. Just coming out of it, I have to manually drag my thoughts to the left, because my first thought is to look at the fence and that there must be someone there. This might be the cause of the fence not blocking the whole passage, or maybe the lighting or textures could be worked to direct you more to the left. Second, something that bothers me is how busy and confusing mid is, even when it is the defining part of the map. By that I mean that this is a Cache like map where the mid is very important, and if you want a good execute onto a site, you need mid control. Because of this, I think it would be better to have a simpler mid, that would have fewer pillars and maybe be thinner. You also have a slight problem with too many areas that aren't needed. The catwalk? bridge from T spawn to mid is basically the same as the ladder, and there's no point to having both of them, (I would recommend taking away the ladder). Another major example of this is A short, not sure of the callouts but that's what it looks like. This is your choice, but you might think about taking away A short, as mid basically gives the same purpose (maybe open the angles a bit) for terrorists. Besides that, the map is really well planned out and well made, good luck.

    Quote from Parkcityfan

    This might be the cause of the fence not blocking the whole passage, or maybe the lighting or textures could be worked to direct you more to the left.

    Thanks, I see what you're saying with regards to player focus on entering the tunnel route at A. As you've noticed I'm using (and probably over-using) those fences to cordon off areas that I don't want playable. Unfortunately I need to figure out a better way to accomplish keeping players out, as the fences are lazy. I just don't know what the right solution is yet (suggestions are welcomed) but I'm contemplating ditching the tunnel altogether and make that route go through the building / lab area instead. That would give me tons of options and simplify things. But I'll give it another shot and see if I can work the tunnel in. I really like the way it looks and was looking forward to showcasing it on this level. I'll try rework the textures, lighting and prop placement as you suggested.

    Quote from Parkcityfan

    Second, something that bothers me is how busy and confusing mid is, even when it is the defining part of the map. By that I mean that this is a Cache like map where the mid is very important, and if you want a good execute onto a site, you need mid control. Because of this, I think it would be better to have a simpler mid, that would have fewer pillars and maybe be thinner. You also have a slight problem with too many areas that aren't needed.

    Those pillars / stacks are a recent addition as mid was wide open in earlier versions. I intended that mid area to play out like a little "arena" if you will, as you've already mentioned.. mid will be an important point on this map. I will try to simplify that area where the pillars are and see if I can make it less confusing. In the current state though, I put a decent amount of thought into the placement of the assets in that area. For instance, T's have to decide what direction they want to take at the fork just before entering the mid arena from the ladder and catwalk area (left or right). The left side provides a little more cover with the partially built up pillar and the peek gap there is repetitively small considering how big the peekgap is on the right side of the fork. Plus CT's will have to expose themselves if they want to get an angle on that sightline. The right side which is pretty much wide open to CT's holding the mid and will be able to easily pick off anyone brave enough to go that way without the protection from a flash, smoke or malitov. Both teams turn their respective corners at around the same time so it will certainly be a point of contention on the level. With carefully place smokes, malitovs and flashes each team can greatly hinder the ability for the other team to push that area. I'll put together a little video outlining the nades that I've planned and see what you think. But I've noted your feedback on how busy it feels. I'll see what I can do to simplify it and keep it challenging at the same time.

    The connector from A short to Mid on the t side was recently added as a way to rotate those routes on the t side. That way playes could backup their teammates eaiser if needed at mid. without the connector T's would have to backtrack thought their spawn or flank CT's through mid to support players choked up at mid. I will try to play around with the way the connector works and see if I can streamline it a little more.

    Lastly the ladder... Previous versions only had the ladder and it worked well, but I noticed other players were not going mid as often as I preferred. Mid being a critical route it is on this map, I wanted to insure players had quick access to that route which is when I added the stairs and catwalk. The only reason I kept the ladder there was in the rare event that a wandering CT was on that side of the map, and needed to get to a planted bombsite faster. I could probably put boxes where CT's could hop up to the elevated area, but figured that would take a few seconds to traverse and I wanted to keep things quick. IIRC, comp bombtime for C4 is 35 seconds so every second counts, that was the main factor in keeping it in. I will experiment with removing the catwalk and moving the stairs that are at tspawn to where the ladder is now and see if that kills both birds with one stone.

    Thanks sooo much for taking the time to evaluate the level and leave feedback. It is much appreciated.

    No problem! I see what you mean with both ladder/catwalk and A short, however I feel like that one reason for keeping the ladder is a bit lackluster. Not really important enough IMO, and if they wanted to rotate to A they would take the normal T path. As you're experimenting with the stairs in replacement with the ladder and cat, be sure not make sure that the stairs aren't in view of mid, because that could mean that the Terrorists would just head glitch that quite easily.

    Quote from Parkcityfan

    be sure not make sure that the stairs aren't in view of mid, because that could mean that the Terrorists would just head glitch that quite easily.

    noted, good call.

    Just watched your stream for a bit. It's always interesting to watch others work! You use the 3D view a hell of a lot more than I do. I don't think it was so versatile when I learnt Worldcraft/Hammer, so I guess I have a lot of useful shortcuts to catch up on as I still use the 2D views for most manipulations!

    Anyway, I must stop watching and get on with my own map. Just wanted to suggest, you could push that big pipe prop in to the wall a bit if you're having trouble fitting it to the length of the narrow corridor.

    Ok, so I started reworking mid. I've filled in the pillar area with world geometry and have made it more or less horse shoe shape. There are still 2 distinct ways to attack mid from T side, but now without the confusing pillar area to get lost in. Plus the hall leading up to mid from B route has been revamped and is much cleaner and attractive. I removed the busy i beams and raised the "ceiling" which is pretty much just suspended pipes.

    Here's a few screens with explanations, (descriptions below the image)

    So this is the hallway leading up to Mid from B route. The obtrusive ceiling has been removed which has is allowing the natural light to pour through the pipes suspended above the walkway. This theme will be expanded on, as this is more in line with the theme I plan on using.


    At the end of the hallway you can see panel that can be used a bank nades off of. I included a temporary target decal to draw attention for playtests.


    Here is a shot near T spawn. As you can see the catwalk has been removed from T spawn and the stairs have moved down and are flush with the building. I am going to flush this out nicer as I have a plan for the stair to be incorporated with that blue building but for the interest of testing this should will work.

    this sightline to mid from T spawn needs to be addressed still...


    From T side this is the area looking down the left side of the Middle Fork.


    And this is the right side of the fork. same sightlines as before the rework but I've added and adjusted the cover. This area can be a death trap with a carefully placed smoke or malitov from the CT side as it's narrow here. If that happens they can rotate and take a chance by pushing forward the A connector just to the right here, or simply play it safer and rotate to the left side of the fork or rotate to B.


    This is an overview shot of middle. Same general shape but now the center area is blocked off. This makes mid have 2 distinct paths in this area. Good angles for fights without having too many angles to cover.

    I'll get the workshop updated with the bsp but I still want to work out a few things. I'll updated when its up.

    after last nights playtest:

    • A lot of us on teamspeak felt the map was too wide to the point where you basically had both an Xmid and a Ymid.
    • it was very easy for the other team to flank us due to the number of routes
    • Site A felt un-natural in terms of CS gameplay. it wasn't in a logical feeling place
    • is mid meant to play like a mini version of DE_iceworld? Because it does.

    It's also very flat. The only obvious height change is in T spawn, as soon as they climb the stairs the entire level is flat.

    There are also a lot of long sight lines criss-crossing the map.

    such wow. I missed my own playtest :nag: I had it on my calendar for the wrong day...

    anyways thanks for the feedback guys. That version is pretty old but I will watch the feedback and take what you've said here and try to get some stuff changed for the next playtest. I already have a new version posted here. That includes 2 files. One with a mid connector and one without.

    Double post (sry)

    just watched the demo through the first time. Lots of good feedback, thanks for everyone that participated and again, sorry for missing it. looking back I see a bunch of negative stuff about mid so hopefully that gets sorted with the updated version. Now I just don't know if I need that connector from mid to B or if I should take it back out.

    Some other feedback was that they felt like they were lost. One thing i tried to give players a sense of where they were on the map was with the texture colors I used. Site A uses warm colors (Yellows, Reds and Browns) and B uses cooler colors (blues and greens). Mid should have more neutral tones but I obviously didn't pull it off as well as I thought so I will go back to to drawing board and try to make better use of the base textures. Also details and theme still are long ways away from being flushed out, once I lock layout I can spend a bunch of time getting localized items that will help certain areas and paths stand out. I just haven't gotten very far on that yet.

    and my favorite comment of the playtest was from PARTY MAN X : "i like seeing iceworld adapted into a defuse map" of course talking about mid... Yes yes, I know, i know...it was weird, but it's better now I promise.

    If anyone has solid ideas for added cover at B please let me know, I'm all ears.

    Done streaming, reworked a bunch of stuff at both teams spawns. Working towards simplifying the initial pathing and routes. I still have a lot of work to do but this is a healthy start. The next big issue to tackle is the Mid to A flank. I have an idea of what needs to be done but for now I'll just leave the latest overview. This is the version that is currently uploaded to the workshop.


    new version landing tomorrow today...

    UPDATE: Link to download. Workshop has also been updated. Playtest tomorrow 6/28/15

    So I remade the map from the ground up as I had too many changes to the layout to make working with the previous file manageable. This latest version should have more defined routes.




    Quote from Vaya

    [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/hutfa6M.png]


    hope my MSpaint notes make sense :)

    It does, thanks for taking the time to put that together.

    • I will rework the "A mid" connector. That really has been a sticky area of with regards to design. I want to keep the opening to the "A Pipes" from Mid to allow players to rotate thru the lab and get to the bombsite should they want to. But currently the way the route kicks both players out right from the split and a mid does feel a bit awkward. I'll work on connecting the "Split" to "A Mid" connector. My biggest concern with that is having 2 parallel alleys right next to eachother.
    • With regards to removing corridor... I'm extremely hesitant to do so tbh. I put that route there to allow players to rotate safely from B and Mid if T's get choked up at the Snake. without it they would have to rotate back through spawn for and strongly dislike the idea of that. Is there something else that could make that area play better without removing it perhaps? I personally like the cover and sight-lines of the corridor but am happy to give it more attention. Removing it entirely though is probably something I'm not prepared to do.
    • The un-needed space is barren for sure, but I suspect once I've been able to get details and spend time on visuals it will fill out that area, but nonetheless I will try and trim the fat and make it a bit more streamlined.
    • The stair route from T spawn should be easy to expand.

    Again, thx for the feedback. I will try to post an update by the end of the week once I've had proper time to analyze all the playtest data from the past weekend.

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