[CS:GO]de_nerone

    Yeah, I agree about the size.

    Also, you should playtest and work on the layout before you do the details and theme. I see you already started off with the theme before even posting here, so you're just making things harder for yourself.

    Quote from AkatsukiUK

    pretty epic in size ^^. Or it at least it seems that way. Would you mind putting on your map where the CT's and T's start?

    Added which spawn is which to the layout

    Quote from TheGuma

    Yeah, I agree about the size.

    Also, you should playtest and work on the layout before you do the details and theme. I see you already started off with the theme before even posting here, so you're just making things harder for yourself.

    In general I agree but with this one I wanted to test if I could make one area pretty enough first before doing the layout. Its been my weak spot in the past and its kinda important

    Quote from KernalPanic

    Is it up on the workshop? I'd like to run around it in game.

    No but you can download it from here if you want: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4x2X2qRu3EoUmU2U3l3TjZoVkU

    So your theme is coming together nicely, I really like the look and feel of the areas you've started detailing; architecture and textures are quite pleasing to the eyes. The indoor areas could definitely use more light as they are too dark at the moment. you're going to want better contrast in terms of players against the walls and whatnot. I also think you can trim down a few routes here and there, and maybe widen some of the more narrow corridors as they fell a little claustrophobic. I'll post my full suggestions later once I've had more time to run through it thoroughly; but for now I gotta get back to work :)

    Hi Kaka. As many people expressed in tonight's playtest, this map is frustratingly complex. There are a lot of minor paths, many of which seem to double back on themselves (presumably in an attempt at controlling timings), which gets very frustrating and dilutes the action. I honestly think that in a 5v5 situation there would be a lot of rounds where some players just never encounter an enemy. It's so complex I can't even begin to make very specific suggestions, but I'd start by deleting the tunnel network in the middle and replacing it with a more traditional "mid", maybe some sort of courtyard that the teams can fight for control over. At the moment there are so many corners and narrow corridors all over the map that the action seems to come down to "who dares to peek first". This is okay to a certain degree, but you need to cater to a number of different play-styles, so try and hone the major routes down to 3 paths and decide on a type of player that you'd like to cater to i.e. snipers, rushers and creepers.

    I think Doom summed up the general player-mood pretty well when when he shouted in to the mic "WHY ARE YOU FULL FLANKING ME ALREADY?" so loud that my connection went down.

    Quote from text_fish

    I think Doom summed up the general player-mood pretty well when when he shouted in to the mic "WHY ARE YOU FULL FLANKING ME ALREADY?" so loud that my connection went down.

    My salt has the power to pierce the internet? wow.

    Hey! The thing is, it is a 3 lane map, with one connector and a possibility for T's to open up 1 additional path to each bombsite. So even though it feels very complex it isn't really that complex.

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    What I think isn't working and making it look more complex than it is:

    The path to A beeing to ct sided making them able to wreck the T's and quickly flank mid

    The second path to b beeing too long, too many turns and not it is obvious where it will lead.

    I need to guide the player better.


    I also plan to simplify alot of things all around the map : )

    I don't think it's the number of lanes, it's how much they weave as well as the distribution. You also don't highlight all the possible routes as you've missed the CT route to the bottom of the map through some sort of apartments, and a route from A site to meet CTs on mid again. I'm pretty sure there are more as well, so can't try and oversimplify your map to us. Additionally, we are the people who play it and if we find problem in it, other people will to.

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    That bridge position for CTs is way too strong, you just have to sit back and pick Ts off through a tight chokepoint.

    Underground mid is ridiculous, as well there being a "head peak" on the box which allows CTs to dig in very easily. The corridor is too narrow for Ts extra entrance to really make a difference as one smoke blocks both off anyway.

    B is just... Huge. It's like awp_india. It has the same problem as main route to A, a tight chokepoint that leads into an open area where CTs can sit far back and pick Ts off. tbh, therein lies the biggest problem that both main routes to each bombsite play exactly the same, you should try more variety.

    Please someone correct me I'm wrong, but I don't remember the bomb ever being planted either.

    Quote from jackophant

    I don't think it's the number of lanes, it's how much they weave as well as the distribution. You also don't highlight all the possible routes as you've missed the CT route to the bottom of the map through some sort of apartments, and a route from A site to meet CTs on mid again. I'm pretty sure there are more as well, so can't try and oversimplify your map to us. Additionally, we are the people who play it and if we find problem in it, other people will to.

    Yes there is one more ct route to B and one route that connects mid to A on the ct side but the point was that from a T perspective there is 3 places to fight A, B and mid and yes there are issues I need to fix. I think the playtesting has been invaluable, lots of good things I'm going to change have been suggested. These are all routes/connectors:

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    Quote from jackophant

    That bridge position for CTs is way too strong, you just have to sit back and pick Ts off through a tight chokepoint.

    Underground mid is ridiculous, as well there being a "head peak" on the box which allows CTs to dig in very easily. The corridor is too narrow for Ts extra entrance to really make a difference as one smoke blocks both off anyway.

    B is just... Huge. It's like awp_india. It has the same problem as main route to A, a tight chokepoint that leads into an open area where CTs can sit far back and pick Ts off. tbh, therein lies the biggest problem that both main routes to each bombsite play exactly the same, you should try more variety.

    Please someone correct me I'm wrong, but I don't remember the bomb ever being planted either.

    I agree, the idea wasnt that the bridge should be the main place for ct's to defend that bombsite, but in current condition its just too good.

    Mid is narrow, Im going to make it bigger, but its a single smoke for T's too so you can close the path you dont want to go and focus on the other one

    I'm going to change the entrance to B so that T's feel safer and can check one area at a time and also remove CT cover

    It was, when fnuggi played T it was planted lots of times. Whatever team he was on won 19 rounds out of 20, he was wrecking everyone : )

    You'd be better to show an overlay that has full vision of the paths rather than roof textures to make paths clearer, as you still missed the route under bombsite B.

    Yes Fnuggi usually wrecks everyone and it's not hard to plant a bomb when everyone is dead (in fact I remember one bomb plant when I was CT because I couldn't get to it in time as I had to follow a weaving route which didn't take me to the bombsite). but that doesn't change how imbalanced the CT defense was. As you can quite clearly see from your pathing, CTs have a wealth of movement and T's have very little scope for rotation.

    Think about the scenario that Ts are trapped outside A, and want to rotate to B asap. They either run via the underground mid are where CTs can quite clearly see them if they haven't already pushed or they run via T spawn. That rotation time is absolutely awful.

    Don't get me wrong, I love the detailing you've been doing, but you should really hold horses on it and fix your layout.

    Good luck.

    Update:

    changed timings 1st path to A and mid

    reworked 2nd path to A

    new T connector for rotating purposes

    detailed ct spawn

    moved A closer to the T side

    removed, moved and added some cover on A and B

    added second path to "A long"

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    New update with gameplay changes and some graphical improvements:

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/fi…s/?id=556558905

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    Incoming feedback, lots of images in this cache!

    I hope this helps. Remember that this is my opinion and feedback. Use what you want to use, you don't have to take my word for truth. Decide yourself, depending on what you want your map to be!

    Thanks for the feedback! its very helpful

    I agree that A long that is too long and the whole B area is too big. Im leaning on that beeing the problem more then the overall size of the map cause its not really that big, timings are on par with d2 and playable area is only slightly larger than d2.

    Im thinking of maybe removing the big rock and half the yard, the idea of it was to break up the path and make it harder for ct to hold with an awp, that they had to take more then one angle into consideration but it doesnt seem to work as planned.

    The compile time is pretty fast I think, it takes about 1,5 hours to full compile. Its vvis and lighting of props that seems to take the longest for me but yes I still need to optimze it : )

    And its good that it seems to work well visually : )

    The problem with the big rock is that CTs can get to the far side without Ts seeing, but Ts can't cross to the big side without being seen from B, unless they smoke their only other route choice. Was planting under B intentional?

    Regarding A long (what's up with the radar A being near CT spawn?) You've got Ts ramp leading up and on the opposite side, stairs for CTs leading up. It's a head peek war that CTs won most of the time. In all honesty, that other doorway that leads down to A near A long is unnecessary. If CTs are pushed back they should go further back, and if anyone on the bridge wants to drop down, then they can without having to go through a stairwell. It's just another place to camp.

    Speaking of camping, there are a lot of deep doorways and paths that are dead ends and are only good for sitting in out of sight. It makes it a lot of hard work having to check everything, especially as when they are so deep the camper has advantage (the person furthest from a corner has peeking advantage - if you don't believe me check out warowl's video on it).

    I feel mid is way too tight. I mentioned in the feedback mid game, but it's all about rush/smoke/spray. There's very little to "play off". Dust2, inferno, mirage, cache, season (etc...) allow you to get creative with smokes and flashes to EARN control of mid. This is just a smoke in the middle that stops everybody. It's not very interesting and can be highly frustrating.

    I think you have to balance your routes and cut a ot of dead space and a few unnecessary paths. A and B long are too long, and mid is too short and spammy.

    On a positive note, map looks great :)

    Ah I see, Im gonna have to think about what to do with B.

    The plant below B is intented, its a feature :)

    The A radar was a bug, the bomb trigger brush was in the right place and there was nothing at the alley close to CT spawn where the A letter were on the minimap. I deleted the brush and made a new one and it now works..

    I'm gonna shorten the head peak fighting place and A long overall, they are way too long. Interesting idea with the door, I havent thought about that.

    Mid is definitly too tight for 10v10 but I want to test it in a more match like scenario before I change that. I dont think it will be as chaotic in 5v5. And my gut feeling tells me this mid can be interesting even though its not the standard kind of mid. They cant smoke it off forever and you can counter smoke if you want. I might be wrong but im gonna go with this mid, atleast for now :)

    Yeah I think I'm gonna remove a couple of the deep doorways, they dont really fill a purpose.

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