I know how to balance de_nuke

    I know how to fix Nuke.

    Quote

    You don't.

    Quote

    It is heavily reliant on team strategies and either way you get team switch after half-time.

    It would make it very different for competitive play, and any team who knows smokes and flashes can easily dominate Nuke on T side.

    I think it's time you guys stop yolo-queuing and find some friends who can help you out.
    Or, just stop playing Nuke in general. That could be a form of protest I guess.

    By your logic no map is broken -- all the poorly balanced maps just aren't being played right. Therefore we may as well all give up on level design?


    Even if Nuke doesn't get fixed, it's an interesting exercise to discuss possible changes, and it's the sort of discussion I'd like to see more of rather than less, especially on a forum full of accomplished and aspiring level designers.

    Quote from TheGuma

    I know how to fix Nuke.

    Personally I think Guma hit the nail right on the head. If you arent getting results on nuke and your in solo Q, there really isnt much to expect. Its not till you start playing at a Team based level that you will begin to see that T's can be just as strong on nuke. Playing the last two predecessors to csgo at LAN's and online, nuke was always a favourite, because it was one of the maps that paid off when you knew what you were doing.

    I miss the days of pracing for hours as a team, timing smokes, flashes and pushes to work against your opponents.


    Quote from text_fish

    By your logic no map is broken -- all the poorly balanced maps just aren't being played right. Therefore we may as well all give up on level design?


    Even if Nuke doesn't get fixed, it's an interesting exercise to discuss possible changes, and it's the sort of discussion I'd like to see more of rather than less, especially on a forum full of accomplished and aspiring level designers.


    I am enjoying the discussion and idea's thrown around. I don't think any of them would really be practical on nuke, and as FMP stated above, any changes and it just wouldn't be nuke. Look at cobblestone, they altered the shit out of that and now its probably worse off than it has ever been.

    I think it would be interesting if someone ripped out just the upper site and T roof and we ran some "simulations".

    I still vote we change all the wall brushes to water textures and let the fun begin!

    Quote from text_fish

    By your logic no map is broken -- all the poorly balanced maps just aren't being played right. Therefore we may as well all give up on level design?


    Even if Nuke doesn't get fixed, it's an interesting exercise to discuss possible changes, and it's the sort of discussion I'd like to see more of rather than less, especially on a forum full of accomplished and aspiring level designers.

    I agree. Of course there has to be some balance, but it doesn't hurt maps like Nuke who are 60/40.

    It's what makes Nuke unique. Even if it's the fast rotation times or getting sniped from heaven, it's annoying but it's how it's been since 1.6. I'm not fanboying 1.6 or saying there doesn't need to be changes to be done, I myself would like to see doors from squeeky to outside, I'm just saying that it's not that of a radical difference to go and start rebuilding the map.


    I just feel like if every map as 50/50 it would get too much repetitive like Dust2 (that map is WAYYY too over-played).


    Again, if you are making a new map - Feel free to make it balanced. It's your map after all (and it should be done, Valve cares about balance).

    But when we talk about nuke, damn, that map is 15 years old besides the outside changes.


    Lastly, as my closer note, since I don't want to get into deeper discussions I'll just say that Valve isn't fast with the updates, so expect Nuke changes in 2 years.


    See you all in 2 years!

    *Magic flying carpet appears*

    Quote from TheGuma

    By your logic no map is broken -- all the poorly balanced maps just aren't being played right. Therefore we may as well all give up on level design?


    Even if Nuke doesn't get fixed, it's an interesting exercise to discuss possible changes, and it's the sort of discussion I'd like to see more of rather than less, especially on a forum full of accomplished and aspiring level designers.


    I agree. Of course there has to be some balance, but it doesn't hurt maps like Nuke who are 60/40.

    It's what makes Nuke unique. Even if it's the fast rotation times or getting sniped from heaven, it's annoying but it's how it's been since 1.6. I'm not fanboying 1.6 or saying there doesn't need to be changes to be done, I myself would like to see doors from squeeky to outside, I'm just saying that it's not that of a radical difference to go and start rebuilding the map.


    I just feel like if every map as 50/50 it would get too much repetitive like Dust2 (that map is WAYYY too over-played).


    Again, if you are making a new map - Feel free to make it balanced. It's your map after all (and it should be done, Valve cares about balance).

    But when we talk about nuke, damn, that map is 15 years old besides the outside changes.


    Lastly, as my closer note, since I don't want to get into deeper discussions I'll just say that Valve isn't fast with the updates, so expect Nuke changes in 2 years.


    See you all in 2 years!

    *Magic flying carpet appears*


    Besides your contradiction about old stuff staying the same but that you do want to see some changes done to it and it being 60/40 and not hurting the map (scratches head...) I really dont agree that Nuke is unique cause of the imbalance and there is a reason Dust2 is the most played map in the history of Counter strike. If we feel that the map is way over-played, that is irrelevant, those are personal opinions with the only fact that the map is old... Nuke being imbalance isn't, the math is there and you know what is even more annoying/unfair/shit? That on paper, equally skilled teams that play equally on balanced maps, they lose when starting as T's. Too many times we've seen teams lose majors cause of the imbalance of nuke, that is why it gets banned from map pools in general.

    If I only would posses the skills some of you do, I'd take on the project myself and with the help of the community, I'd give it my best to try and save Nuke. It's a real shame people only like Nuke if they get to start as CT's cause it's so easy to hold, you just need a good awper on yard which can take out an entire team, same with a good defensive player (can also be an awper) on ramp which in return leaves THREE players to hold inside... (Arguments can be made about a good awper on yard... An example rushing into B on Dust2 only thing is that Dust2 fixes this issue by giving you 3 quick options, running out mid, running up ramp or rushing long A, options Nuke excutes very very poorly).

    The changes Volcano did to the yard was not a bad idea but not the best either. Throw a couple of good smokes and T's get through yard with ease, it's a start but then you have the instant rotations by the CT's and boom dead.

    The other change he made was to close off the left lower entrance to B site from yard (next to the vents), again not bad but the bloody vents are there to play hide and seek in and as CT you can easily hold from ramp or window and yet again T's are seating ducks, like so many times we've witnessed it before and you dont even have to be lurking in the vents as CT either.

    A site... Rafters, dear old rafters... If you are good enough you can block T's from coming in before they even know what's happening, you can spam the hut or nade it to death, no smoke will ever do some good for T's there.

    What does all of this tell us? More that often you have T's wait out the clock only to run out, make a fast play and rush somewhere, if only CT's didn't have those unfair insta rotations...

    Nuke is not unique due its imbalance, it's unique cause of only the name and the theme and cause there was no Nuke2 or any other type of nuke after that, people tried but they always made the same mistake, they started working over a flawed formula. The theme and name is nice, it's catchy and blowing nukes up is bad ass (virtually atleast).

    I personally think that fixing Nuke is the Achiles Heel of mapping for Counter strike, it's a hard task to take on and if it fails, the internet will devour you. It's either that or mappers are too busy with their own projects to care. I give alot props to Volcano for trying and I doubt he will return to CSGO now that he got a job as leveldesigner for other games and I know FMPone said no to it on his stream today, I was hoping he would take it on.

    I'm with FMP on this, messing with Nuke won't make it Nuke anymore. It's survived 15 years with just 1 game play adjustment, and it's still ever popular in competitive scenes for a very good reason. It's probably the best high-risk, high-reward map, because matches between good teams are often decided by 1 round. It's expected that on CTs you'll get 11-4 minimum, but anything better than that as a T and you're likely to win. Even against the better teams, 11-4 on CT just isn't enough. Some of the majors last year saw halfs of 13-2 and 12-3 on CT, blowing their opponents away. Although I did see a comeback from a 13-2 half that was ridiculous (I think it wasNa'Vi vs fnatic?). In my opinion, the best game of the last major was NiP vs VP on Nuke, the triple overtime game when NiP looked as good as gone at half time. But they did barely enough to stay in it and snatched a round, just 1 single round to stay in it, snatching an 11-4 half time score when 12-3 was more likely.

    Yeah it's CT sided and in pub games you'll often win 16-6 or lose 16-4 because you can't get the rounds you need as Ts and you can't coordinate together, and the CTs pressure too high up. Doesn't mean it's unbalanced, because both teams have equal opportunity, and both teams can win or lose it on the T side.

    I think that Cache is probably the best first map with D2 a close second, just because they're balanced maps and can be won or lost on the T side, as well as the CT side. Nuke is probably the best 2nd map but its popularity has dropped off. I think it's better than Mirage, but Mirage was played a lot more than Nuke at the last major (even D2 was played a lot as the 2nd map). Inferno is probably the best decider map, but Overpass is coming up quickly, played in the 3 finals deciders at the last major (all the ones before that it was Inferno or Mirage).

    It doesn't get played a lot any more, which I find unfortunate, because it's a genuinely fun and challenging map to play (probably the most challenging). Although if you're a pro outfit, never let NiP play it, because you might as well chalk it up as a loss before you play. That NiP vs VP game though... oh my.. Worth staying up late to watch that!

    Mirage - CT 10/5
    Nuke - CT 11/4
    Overpass - CT 11/4
    Inferno - CT 9/6
    D2 - T 8-7

    Train - CT (old 12-3, new 10-5)

    Cache - CT 9/6

    Cobble - CT 11/4 (12/3 anyone good)


    People talk about balance, they look at maps like Inferno and Cache, which are still inherently CT biased, but instead of it being 60%+ it's between 50% and 55%. D2 is the only map that regularly favours the T team and it's still played, just not as much in the big tournaments. In 2013 it was very popular as well as Inferno, but in the last major, Cache, Mirage and Overpass were the popular maps. Even Inferno was played more than D2. Cobble was played 3 times, so there you go. That map was wildly biased and just a bad map to play on.


    Quote from 8bit

    If I only would posses the skills some of you do, I'd take on the project myself and with the help of the community, I'd give it my best to try and save Nuke. It's a real shame people only like Nuke if they get to start as CT's cause it's so easy to hold, you just need a good awper on yard which can take out an entire team, same with a good defensive player (can also be an awper) on ramp which in return leaves THREE players to hold inside... (Arguments can be made about a good awper on yard... An example rushing into B on Dust2 only thing is that Dust2 fixes this issue by giving you 3 quick options, running out mid, running up ramp or rushing long A, options Nuke excutes very very poorly).


    Couple of well placed smokes and a jump onto silo will silence any awp. People in random MM play that way, bitch and moan about it, but pros are happy to start either teams. Strong CT teams will want to start CTs and vice-versa.


    Of the hundred+ pro games that I've seen (a lot less than others on these boards, even those that play in them), I reckon I could count rushes on both hands.

    This is a 2 day old Alpha I tested with 2 friends, it's not really playable (as parts of the ground is not yet made (most of the displacements is placebo for future work (hell most of the environment is just so I know what to build off of) and should not be viewed as a final product) but you can test it out to get a sense of the basic idea I'm working with and the minimal changes that will be done (it feels more different than it actually is...


    http://files.gamebanana.com/bitpit/nuke.rar


    I'm already far further in the development, techroom, ramp and vents is where I've changed the most since then.


    some updated Hammer screenshots:

    [Blocked Image: http://puu.sh/ghBRJ/bdcc645ae5.jpg]

    [Blocked Image: http://puu.sh/ghBTi/42ce6b9c09.jpg]


    [Blocked Image: http://puu.sh/ghBXG/a453941462.jpg]

    The only thing I would do with nuke is moving all the spawn points a bit closer to the center of the map. This gives T's a bit more time to wait for smokes to clear etc..

    You're gonna need to work A LOT on the textures

    My only concern is that the vents in the pictures (the huge ones) can't be wallbanged.

    Also, please don't do it like the De_Nuke revamp where there's vents and windows on lobby roof.

    Quote from TheGuma

    You're gonna need to work A LOT on the textures

    My only concern is that the vents in the pictures (the huge ones) can't be wallbanged.

    Also, please don't do it like the De_Nuke revamp where there's vents and windows on lobby roof.


    Texturing is far far far from done, in the final product it will contain a lot more custom content (textures and models) and texture diversity, It's mostly just bland right now regarding texturing, most of it is just to get the general feel of it.

    the vents system in tech room?

    vents and windows on lobby roof like that would be way to drastic on gameplay, I am aiming to keep it very true to both CSGO and 1.6, while still trying to balance the sides (slightly). the biggest gameplay change I've made is a door from lobby to yard.

    People, even though the version I posted was far from finished, even in gameplay elements it's not done (I'm focusing on brushwork on props gameplay-wise before any severe detailing efforts) but I'm uploading the test for feedback, because it's a remake of an offical competitive map, anything gameplay-wise requires vast amounts of feedback for the most satisfying results

    Have you got any screens of the layout? Would be interested to know what changes you're making. Judging by the changes you're trying to make they look pretty significant. But it does look like a big time throw back to pre-1.5 and even slightly 1.6


    If there's a revamp to Nuke it should be a new theme rather than altering the balance of the map. A snow theme - that would be cool!

    Quote from unremarkable player

    Have you got any screens of the layout? Would be interested to know what changes you're making. Judging by the changes you're trying to make they look pretty significant. But it does look like a big time throw back to pre-1.5 and even slightly 1.6


    If there's a revamp to Nuke it should be a new theme rather than altering the balance of the map. A snow theme - that would be cool!


    there is a link in the post with an alpha version, it's an very early rough version but it has the layout and theme of the map, any feedback is appreciated

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