Wall Worm Wants YOU and your pretty maps

    Warning: Wall Of Text being condensed...


    Everyone has loved Source, hated Source... loved Hammer, Hated Hammer... etc. Skipping rest of blah blah.


    So Wall Worm has allowed everyone to build levels for Source inside 3ds Max for a while now. And it's about to enter a new phase with the addition of Wall Worm Pro. If you want to know what that is, go read about Wall Worm Pro on the Wall Worm website.


    One of the things that's bothered me for a few years now is how angry the Source community gets whenever I talk about using Max for Source level design. I get it... because I am also defensive about the tools I love too.


    Most of the reasons people give me about why you should not use Max and should use hammer is BS. 99% of it is. Really, the only valid reasons I can think of is familiarity and proficiency (and cost if you are unable to use the educational versions of Max and don't already own Max). That's it. If you know 3ds Max and Wall Worm intimately, there are infinite opportunities that Max presents that just don't exist in Hammer. But if you are familiar with Hammer and not Max... well it can be daunting. I understand that.


    So I'm trying to get some more people interested in learning how to use Max as a Source level editor by launching a level design contest. The first contest is Amazing Desert. There are several mods you can map for as long as it fits the contest theme and rules. The contest has some prizes (various commercial Wall Worm plugins like Wall Worm Pro and CorVex). I wish I could offer more... but that's all I can offer right now.


    All submissions must be in by Midnight (12pm EST) of February 28, 2015. Winner will be announced on the Ides of March (March 15, 2015).


    At this time the judges are Rick Underhill and myself. I am petitioning a couple of my other contacts to also help judge.


    I hope that this entices some of you to learn some of the tools in Wall Worm and how exciting it is to build levels in Max. I have tried to share some of the possibilities with the community but I'm often torn between developing WW, making a living, helping the community, documenting WW, promoting, etc... and it's really a lot to cover on my own (the WW development team actually now includes another developer named Orvid King, so that helps). But obviously all the effort has not gotten the kind of interest in the level design tools that I really want to foster. I hope that some of you talented folks will take a look at the contest and share some of your creativity and talents.


    I am always happy to answer questions on using the tools. And I promise that if there isn't a way to do something cool you think of, I will think long and hard on ways to help you accomplish it. I've added almost every feature anyone has asked for in Wall Worm in the last 4+ years. And now I hope you join in on it all.

    That deadline is extremely tight considering you have people trying to learn a new tool while competing. A month and a bit is just not enough. Stretch it out to 3 or 4 months and you might have a better turn out.

    I don't think the issue with adoption of something like Wall Worm boils down to people being defensive about what tool set they use. I think the problem is that learning anything new (say, moving beyond Hammer to make maps in Max) is just another thing to add to the to-do list pile for people who are already overloaded trying to ship content.


    You could argue that learning the new skills would help them ship more content, but again it's not defensiveness it's prioritization, which I think is important to clarify. If people had all the time in the world I'm sure great tools would all get more use. I would also say that offering premium use of tools for using said tools in your contest is a bit cyclical and unlikely to affect much change, cash would probably be more effective frankly.

    Hey guys. I should have left the comments out above. They are a result of various frustrations that I'm dealing with regarding the efforts in WW. My expressions is mainly a result of the mass of responses I've gotten via many avenues for several years. In essence, far more people are anti-Max for Source level design based on bad assumptions or poor information. Of course there are many that just aren't familiar with Max and don't have the time to learn something new, but I know from the volume of communications, this is the minority, especially with the amateur landscape. I try to be immune, but after 500 14 year olds sending me emails, IMs or forum flaming about how something is stupid... it can boil over


    I may extend the contest if it seems prudent, Stormy. Part of my rationale is showing how you can build levels far faster in Max... but it does entail you already know Max/WW.


    Shawn, offering cash would be something I'd do if my wife wouldn't shoot me. The tools are a fair gift, in my opinion. The contest is to get people to try using Max and the general free WW tools. Of course my long term goals are to get people interested in the Max environment enough that they end up buying the commercial tools more. This will help lessen the frustrations I deal with the giant world of 14 year-olds and their flames ... and will also help lessen the possibility that my wife will shoot me in general.


    I intend to release some new docs and videos showing various new tools and workflows as soon as I'm done adding DMX into WW this week.

    I might give this a go. I'm more comfortable with Max from prototyping layouts and placeholder models during my dayjob already, so this seems like a great excuse. I do agree that the timeline does seem a bit daunting.

    I'm sure many people will say they could ship a map by the date you've suggested (might not look or run great though, depending on the person), but I personally worry about the necessary buffer time allotment for playtesting and iteration, custom asset creation (start to finish), and optimization.

    Quote from soultron

    I might give this a go. I'm more comfortable with Max from prototyping layouts and placeholder models during my dayjob already, so this seems like a great excuse. I do agree that the timeline does seem a bit daunting.

    I'm sure many people will say they could ship a map by the date you've suggested (might not look or run great though, depending on the person), but I personally worry about the necessary buffer time allotment for playtesting and iteration, custom asset creation (start to finish), and optimization.

    I will definitely consider extending if the participants generally feel its necessary. I'm going to try and put out some new videos that will help explain some features and techniques this week that might lessen the design burdens.


    Also, from the increased users testing the level design tools and providing feedback, I've found and fixed some bugs that will help anyone trying to migrate a project from Source to Max. The VMF/Map importer should no longer have the occasional bad brush or incorrect UV in the latest version of WW. We also found and fixed some major issues with running WW on Max 2012. Still, strongly urge users to use Max 2015+... so much faster and nicer.

    Just some updates for those playing around in Max. There was an update this morning to fix the broken texture exporter. There was a problem in the VTF exporter if WW Pro isn't installed... the exporter kept thinking that all bitmaps had invalid dimensions. That problem is now fixed.

    Any chance you could extend this so say... Blender?? A lot of people who model for hammer use blender. Avoids the many $$$'sands they have to spend to purchase software they can essentially get for free (albeit, Maya and 3DSM are a pretty long way ahead of Blender in film, but it does the job just fine)

    Quote from unremarkable player

    Any chance you could extend this so say... Blender?? A lot of people who model for hammer use blender. Avoids the many $$$'sands they have to spend to purchase software they can essentially get for free (albeit, Maya and 3DSM are a pretty long way ahead of Blender in film, but it does the job just fine)

    Blender is certainly a great free asset to the world of creativity. I'm glad it exists, and that it continues to grow. But it just isn't my cup of tea. The only reason WW has gotten to the point it has is because of my own personal passion for using it inside my darling 3ds Max. I don't have the resources (time, incentive) to make a Blender version. I've been using Max for 15 years. My incentive was the fact that I love both Source and 3ds Max, which gave me the reason to make time for it. And it took those years of using Max to get to where I understood enough about Max to start WW with any kind of sanity; and once started, it's been a 4-year education into MAXScript, linear algebra, application quirks and "customer" support. For me to make time for Blender would be like spending years to train and teach your beloved champion Golden Retriever, but suddenly stop all interaction with it and suddenly take all your money, time and dog food to feed and groom the neighbor's dog instead--and do it while your heart is yearning to take your own dog for walks.

    How hard would it be to have a version of your software that could work without 3ds max?

    Since Blender can export .3ds, it could be useful to convert in .3ds then into .vmf.

    Pardon me if it is a stupid question I'm not a genius in software development!

    I am of the target market that has only used Hammer, and although I know hammer quite well i wouldn't say im stubborn in exploring other software. Rather, and i think it was mentioned before, it is more so the time and effort required to "aquire" 3ds max and the plugin, and then learn it (Laziness). Of-course i also think there are limitations when it does have a rather "Pay to play" business model, opposed to Hammer which is provided free with a rather easy to use interface and larger community.


    Saying this, do you find a common limitation when reaching out to people with 3ds Max? Is the cost, effort and alternate software all hurdles that have come up time and time again? I am just curious why you would go for an option that is harder to put into the hands of your average user. I really like that you've developed from the ground up, and I can see you are extremely passionate about 3dsMax and WW, but for me personally, I think the time and effort spent would not merit the outcome.


    On Topic: I look forward to seeing the entrants submissions in this competition and seeing what WW is capable of. Maybe I'll be put in my place and end up 'acquiring' a copy of 3ds.

    Quote from laminutederire

    How hard would it be to have a version of your software that could work without 3ds max?

    Since Blender can export .3ds, it could be useful to convert in .3ds then into .vmf.

    Pardon me if it is a stupid question I'm not a genius in software development!

    It would be harder than you think. There is a lot of logic in all the WW tools tied to how 3ds Max works internally. And there is nothing in WW that deals with .3ds files (which is an old format that isn't actually what 3ds Max uses). WW doesn't work directly on file formats except in terms of importing/exporting between Max and Source. So, for example, WW doesn't convert a VMF to a file format--instead, it imports the VMF data to create Geometry inside Max, or to export it takes scene geometry and exports to VMF.


    Quote from Guni

    I am of the target market that has only used Hammer, and although I know hammer quite well i wouldn't say im stubborn in exploring other software. Rather, and i think it was mentioned before, it is more so the time and effort required to "aquire" 3ds max and the plugin, and then learn it (Laziness). Of-course i also think there are limitations when it does have a rather "Pay to play" business model, opposed to Hammer which is provided free with a rather easy to use interface and larger community.

    Saying this, do you find a common limitation when reaching out to people with 3ds Max? Is the cost, effort and alternate software all hurdles that have come up time and time again? I am just curious why you would go for an option that is harder to put into the hands of your average user. I really like that you've developed from the ground up, and I can see you are extremely passionate about 3dsMax and WW, but for me personally, I think the time and effort spent would not merit the outcome.

    On Topic: I look forward to seeing the entrants submissions in this competition and seeing what WW is capable of. Maybe I'll be put in my place and end up 'acquiring' a copy of 3ds.

    Pay to Play isn't really an issue. The majority of students and hobbyists can get Max for free directly from Autodesk Education Center. The hurdles I generally face are lack of education. The internet likes to regurgitate untrue facts forever. I still see people say that you can't use Max for Source levels or that there is no SMD exporters for Max 2015, etc. Apparently, the skill to use Google is only learned by people older than 30.

    Quote from shawnolson

    Pay to Play isn't really an issue. The majority of students and hobbyists can get Max for free directly from Autodesk Education Center. The hurdles I generally face are lack of education. The internet likes to regurgitate untrue facts forever. I still see people say that you can't use Max for Source levels or that there is no SMD exporters for Max 2015, etc. Apparently, the skill to use Google is only learned by people older than 30.


    And with that last part, you lost me, sorry but now you're sounding off untrue facts.


    It's great you've done this and yeah you really believe in your toolset because you have a passion for 3DS Max, but we all use the Hammer editor, it's what we have learnt to use for years to craft our worlds, if someone has prior knowledge of Max then I'm sure they will be interested in WW as it does look really useful, but you will find that is not the majority, I should know, I've been floating around for 13 years myself and all I ever saw was XSI or blender being the go to tools for hobbyists as they didn't cost anything above maybe a pint to a mate to get it all working for you.


    Keep up good the work on WW.

    Quote from FRAG

    And with that last part, you lost me, sorry but now you're sounding off untrue facts.


    It's great you've done this and yeah you really believe in your toolset because you have a passion for 3DS Max, but we all use the Hammer editor, it's what we have learnt to use for years to craft our worlds, if someone has prior knowledge of Max then I'm sure they will be interested in WW as it does look really useful, but you will find that is not the majority, I should know, I've been floating around for 13 years myself and all I ever saw was XSI or blender being the go to tools for hobbyists as they didn't cost anything above maybe a pint to a mate to get it all working for you.


    Keep up good the work on WW.

    Please do not misinterpret that comment. I came on to share a video and saw these posts and tried to quickly answer again. I was answering the question about what I personally feel is a challenge for me. That someone wants to use Hammer, Blender, etc is perfectly fine Entirely. My frustrations alluded to are that those who discuss this topic in many forums or ask them generally regurgitate answers that are simply not true (like the fact that many forums constantly say you cannot use Max after 2012 for models, etc). Those are very Max-specific things.


    I have many friends who use only Hammer. And I know many exceptionally talented people that make things that blow my mind in Hammer. I've had access to the original Hammer files for Dear Esther and am simply astounded by what Rob Briscoe did inside it.


    I do not believe that you have to use Max for your levels, nor do I feel that anyone is undeserving of respect if they use Hammer. While I am very biased for Max, that is my own personal passion that I enjoy sharing with the world. Please do not misinterpret my post as condescending ... as I generally simply love creativity and creative people.

    That's fair enough then


    I really do like WW, I remember you posting about it on the WOLD forums a while ago and being impressed, I just can't see myself picking up Max (especially as it's been years since I was a student) and trying to use it though.


    I'll be watching out for any content made with WW in the future, and who knows, maybe one day I could give it a go.


    All the best

    Some of the stuff that level designers are doing these days in Hammer are really quite impressive. But the workflow slows down because of the limitations within the software. I don't think mappers would be against learning new tools, as long as the transition is easy and familiar. Take the source2 tools for example - they're significantly different, but from the few level designers I've talked to about them, they absolutely swear by the new tools.


    I think people can live with the limitations, if only the UI was improved as time passes. As it stands, the UI is pretty bad and the tools don't perform too well when you're looking at a lot of geometry in textured mode. Flat mode gives good performance but absolutely no distinction between world brushes, details, props, models and control brushes. I found recently that optimising a map with a lot of detail could be quite difficult and very slow going, whenever you had to display a lot of detail. Hammer crashed on me so many times I lost count and I lost hours of work with occasionally corrupted files.


    Joris Ceone is doing some good work in your contest with the WW tools. It's going to give other level designers, who are already familiar with 3DS, impetus to try it out.


    Since I'm long past being a student, how does one get 3DS without paying squillions for it?

    Quote from FRAG

    And with that last part, you lost me, sorry but now you're sounding off untrue facts.

    It's great you've done this and yeah you really believe in your toolset because you have a passion for 3DS Max, but we all use the Hammer editor, it's what we have learnt to use for years to craft our worlds, if someone has prior knowledge of Max then I'm sure they will be interested in WW as it does look really useful, but you will find that is not the majority, I should know, I've been floating around for 13 years myself and all I ever saw was XSI or blender being the go to tools for hobbyists as they didn't cost anything above maybe a pint to a mate to get it all working for you.

    Keep up good the work on WW.

    Mmh I'm not sure I understand this post.I'm one of those who never used anything but hammer. I'm not so keen in trying modelling software, it's a scary feeling having to go through a lengthy learning process.

    I think the adoption of these tools goes hand in hand in what you want to achieve, I mean long term.

    Is perfectly fine to keep using only hammer, there are professionals who do, but if you are looking into getting in game dev, acquiring skill with a modelling tool is useful and where pure modelling is scary, starting with something more relatable to you might make it easier. There are companies working completely in these 3d packages.

    Also Stuff that is clunky in hammer is probably much more functional in 3Ds/plugins. Ie: yesterday I was looking at a curved wall with support pillars: replicating it in hammer is a bitch, where what you'd need is the ability to move the pivot outside the brush, like you can in Photoshop or Illustrator. There was a post from KFS showing the workaround he had to go through when creating koth_roundhouse… I was wondering if plugins like this have addressed these problems.

    Edit:

    When you can legally acquire an expensive sw like 3Ds for free or cheap for personal use, there's little excuse not to. Depends what you want to do. Personally I know it's perfectly possible to release a good map with only hammer knowledge, so I would like to get to that before learning a different pipeline.

    With the success that CSGO is having, I am seeing a lot of professionals flocking to Source mapping to get into the operations, I think that's the kind of users this tool might be most beneficial: they might be working with a modelling tool only or very similar to it already in their companies, and they know the value of a good tool and are not afraid to spend little extra to be more productive.

    I made the mistake of excluding too many of the people that are friends of mine or moderators of WW forums... who are the people most interested in this. As such, I'm not going to make that restriction on the next contest. There is still a week on the current contest. Next month there will be a brand new contest that will have a new theme along with a much more enticing first-place prize.


    And to help here is a new video on getting a VMF into Max with the props:


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    Expect some more videos on actual design tools and workflow techniques soon.

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