Recruiting process vs salary

    Quote from Sjonsson

    So what you're saying is that young people have to think loooong ahead because the pension system is "defect"? That's bad, they could just as well remove it then.

    That seems messy, I wonder how much resources that goes into administrating the whole door to door-thing. To me it sounds a bit like how some companies sending you analog reminder fees so low that the letter they send actually cost more than they earn on the fee.


    Damn, that's super high. Do you get high pension out of that? Where does it all go? Coffe cakes for the gov?

    All goes to propping up the Euro so that Germany can maintain low export prices. Had a rant about this on facebook the other month. I get effectively nothing that I wouldn't get in the UK, for 25% tax rate.

    At least with our tax our education becomes free, in addition to healthcare services etc etc.


    As for the wage discussion, it's hard for me to be anything but neutral. I see both sides of the problem - you shove your wage in people's face, the workplace is going to be hell. But on the other hand, you want the information to be available. Gamasutra's idea of an average salary is perhaps the best way of doing this, but I'd argue it needs to be expanded so that one can check it for each country, for each individual profession, and for each company. That way you won't turn bitter towards fellow employees.

    Getting bitter at colleagues is the wrong attitude, one should think what he can do better, or blame the company.

    Italy as well provides for education and healthcare with taxation… unfortunately quality of services have been declining steeply. (And youngsters are little unuseful shits.)

    Sjonsson: I think we got door-to-door from some other country, anyway it's very efficient and we don't have to walk to communal bins that get filled up with all the wrong things and never get emptied. The company collecting garbage is private (I think with council participation) and then they recycle. I'd be happy to pay and have the result we have now.

    Unfortunately they haven't figured this out for big cities and some areas (as you might have seen on TV in the past) still have garbage collection problems. (Well, also due to the fact they dunno where to put it cos dumps are filled.)

    You can't just expect people to have a good attitude towards someone who earns more than them in the same position, especially if they have been there for a shorter time or if they in another way think it's unjust. Perceived injustice without rationalization will lead to bitterness almost regardless of how "pure" a person is - it is so ingrained in our nature. I don't think blaming the company is a solution either, but asking them for a rationalization definitely is. Perhaps the solution is rooted in that employers should be given a rationalization for each employee's salary when they first employ said employee. That way at least people know what they are getting into.


    But of course this isn't in the company's best interest, as I'm sure they want to save and cut as much money as possible by paying people less - even if it's small amounts.


    In other news, this has been a very interesting thread and discussion. We should have more of these kinds of debates rather than the contrived threads of personal struggles or posting about our new material gains (although I am guilty of the latter).

    Villhem, so it's all about benefitting from your low alcohol taxes, eh? We swedes go a lot to your bordershops to get some cheap booze. My guesswork says you'd get that in the UK since the brittish pound is so strong, amirite?

    Sentura, we have that here in Sweden too. I'd really like to see the differences between Sweden and Denmark in terms of taxes Vs. services and quality of services, without really thinking about it before I've seen us as quite "the same" but I'm guessing we're somewhat different, at least we should be when your rates are so much higher.

    blackdog, I guess privatising that could be a smart thing (and possibly a goldmine since we can't handle all the garbage.) We have communal recycling here and I'd say it works quite well (since Sweden is actually importing trash from other countries), but the whole thing with bins getting filled with the wrong stuff and not emptied on time is still a problem.

    Also, sorry for going OT allover the place, heh!

    The UK's garbage set-up seems to work pretty well from what I've seen, although I'd be interested to hear if those who've lived here and elsewhere think otherwise. Generally, garbage trucks go house to house, and each house has two or three wheelie bins: one for general waste (green), one for recyclable waste (blue), and one for garden/organic waste (brown). Apartments are a bit different as there's usually a communal bin area or chutes, but those are just bigger versions of the house-to-house ones.

    Anyway, having read more posts I do agree that sharing salaries between direct colleagues could easily lead to uncomfortable conversations. But then, if somebody does join and earn like £5k–£10k more than someone who's been there for years and is just as good, shouldn't that poor sucker get to know he's being paid so much less? If nobody talks about it, how would they?

    Of course you can always look at other jobs and averages, but they can vary so much between regions that it's rarely particularly useful. Plus, you might not want to leave your current employer or rock the boat too much, especially in games where there isn't exactly a plethora of jobs in every area.

    It seems like employees are the only ones who can empower themselves in this area by sharing knowledge. Glassdoor is a solid idea; it'd be great if everyone at every company anonymously put their role/team and salary on there so you can almost always get an idea of what your cohorts are getting paid without knowing exactly who. Probably a good compromise, and if it became as standard as maintaining a LinkedIn profile it could be extremely powerful.

    I think most of our excessive tax goes to corrupt politicians and stuff like renaming the town hall plaza to the rainbow plaza. Right now the political seat has draped itself in a law that shrouds them from public insight, which makes it difficult to know for sure. But I digress, this is about wages, not politics.

    Quote from Thrik

    The UK's garbage set-up seems to work pretty well from what I've seen, although I'd be interested to hear if those who've lived here and elsewhere think otherwise. Generally, garbage trucks go house to house, and each house has two or three wheelie bins: one for general waste (green), one for recyclable waste (blue), and one for garden/organic waste (brown). Apartments are a bit different as there's usually a communal bin area or chutes, but those are just bigger versions of the house-to-house ones.

    Anyway, having read more posts I do agree that sharing salaries between direct colleagues could easily lead to uncomfortable conversations. But then, if somebody does join and earn like £5k–£10k more than someone who's been there for years and is just as good, shouldn't that poor sucker get to know he's being paid so much less? If nobody talks about it, how would they?

    Of course you can always look at other jobs and averages, but they can vary so much between regions that it's rarely particularly useful. Plus, you might not want to leave your current employer or rock the boat too much, especially in games where there isn't exactly a plethora of jobs in every area.

    It seems like employees are the only ones who can empower themselves in this area by sharing knowledge. Glassdoor is a solid idea; it'd be great if everyone at every company anonymously put their role/team and salary on there so you can almost always get an idea of what your cohorts are getting paid without knowing exactly who. Probably a good compromise, and if it became as standard as maintaining a LinkedIn profile it could be extremely powerful.

    Literally exactly the same as in Germany for garbage, paid by council tax too.

    5% of the taxes in Germany go toward helping fund the recovery of the former DDR (East Germany) since the reunification. Of course, we should all expect that rate stay the same well after they've essentially caught up (which they more or less have)

    We all agree that companys "encourage" not talking about salary across the board? ... right ?


    Is there anyone thinking that this is "NOT" because of a 100% economical reason ?


    Because let me tell you: all the touchy/feely/tip-toe/social-awkwardness arguments I have heard so far do not even factor into this decision/behavior on the companys part. it is in fact as simple as this:


    Does everbody knowing about each others salary cost us more or less at the end of each month ?

    More ?!

    Okay than we don't want people to know!

    Quote from Furyo

    5% of the taxes in Germany go toward helping fund the recovery of the former DDR (East Germany) since the reunification. Of course, we should all expect that rate stay the same well after they've essentially caught up (which they more or less have)


    Same for brigde tolls. Specially here in the US, they build the tolls to pay for the building of the bridge, but the tolls stay there forever, because they're not just gonna say no to that cash flow.

    It's actually because the bridges, like the highways in France for instance, are no longer built with public money (they don't have any, California is bankrupt). Private companies (construction) work and put the cash upfront, then sign a licensing deal with the state for a number of years to cover for their cost/work/interest. Decades or more. Once that deal is over, the licensing is over and all leftover tolls go to the pocket of the state, which of course remains sole proprietor for the entire time.

    I'm 100% with Warby on this. Sharing what you earn should be mandatory.


    Hell it was/is even public knowledge in Norway. (the tax listings are/were public). They added the requirement that you have to log into your personal account (requires your id and some codes that are personal). And the person you look up gets a notification.


    Quote

    Reasons why you should never talk about your own salary:

    - It's highly dependent on several factors, not just "how good" or "how fast" you are. Each person is unique and you can't really compare yourself to others from their salaries alone.

    I don't understand why this is a reason against sharing? What you are saying is 100% correct though, I just don't agree with the assessment that the uniqueness and comparing of employees should only be one mans job (your boss). I know for a fact that my boss does not know/care about all the qualities that our lead designer likes about me. Why shouldn't our lead designer have a say about my value to the team?


    Quote

    - People get different raises and different bonuses, based not just on "how good they are" but as well as the manager's judgement, how well the company/team is doing, personal skills etc...

    Same point as above, basically. I don't agree that one manager should be the only guy to judge your skills.


    Quote

    - It might lead to competition, even if subconsciously. This is a natural tendency among men and one that I try to avoid personally.

    Competition is healthy, I think, especially when it benefits the guys receiving the pay check. In order to receive a higher pay check you actually have to earn it, and not only in the mind of one guy who you can (in some cases) suck up to, but to many people who would most likely value you higher for your contribution to the team or business.


    Quote

    - It's very unprofessional.

    That's bullshit. At least where I work. But it might be at your place of work, because what is, and what is not, unprofessional is up to the people who work where you work. This thread is about trying to change that stigma I think.


    Finally, I'd just like to throw it out there that I earn 360 000 NOK before taxes (which ranges from 35~45% in Norway)

    Which is roughly 60 000$ or 44 000€ per year. Which is 3666€ per month.

    I'm 100% with Skjalg and Warby on this.

    To throw my 2 cents in too, I earn roughly 33 000€ per year (before tax), which is 2122€ per month after taxes in UK as a TA on A:I.

    You guys could be biased by your own work cultures. In Europe, salary grids are a lot more common, and it's therefore easier to accept talking about salaries as everyone within the same seniority and job has about the same pay.


    In Canada and the US, I've experienced vast differences, that are mostly justified by individual history and "cred" based on previous games or ability to negotiate once inside a company. There are also companies that are so cosmopolitan that expecting everyone to share their salary essentially calls for a revolution. You simply can't recruit the absolute best in the world in a given field when the competition is international, if your salary grid is only local. And when it is international, how do you want the local senior guy who's spent 15 years inside the same studio to understand that the brand new recruit who is an absolute expert was paid 50% more?

    Sharing salaries is all fine on paper, particularly when individuals are essentially all the same (same background, national citizens, same studies, same local experience, same experience give or take a year or two). Once you start recruiting on the international scale, and you want to have the greatest graphics engineer from Google, Naughty Dog, Valve or what have you, be ready to break the bank, or Europe simply cannot compete. And salaries at this point should absolutely be off-limits, because you don't and cannot have a good frame of reference for everyone to understand.


    And yes, of course, that also benefits the employers. They're all too happy keeping salaries secret, as that's employee retention 101. Why pay someone more when he doesn't know he's not getting paid as much as someone else? Unions could be a way to mitigate that, but at the cost of personal achievements, something some cultures would be very reluctant to accept.

    Haha, yeah because salary grids are completely abided by... nope.


    And I don't buy that frame of reference arguement, as I would expect anyone in the industry after more than 3 years to have a pretty good frame of reference, family, kid, experience, ability, etc.

    Quote from Thrik

    It seems like employees are the only ones who can empower themselves in this area by sharing knowledge. Glassdoor is a solid idea; it'd be great if everyone at every company anonymously put their role/team and salary on there so you can almost always get an idea of what your cohorts are getting paid without knowing exactly who. Probably a good compromise, and if it became as standard as maintaining a LinkedIn profile it could be extremely powerful.


    This. Everyone should do Glassdoor.


    Question, do we think the game industry would have higher salaries if salaries were made more public? Would that raise the average salary if people started to figure out they were being paid less than they were worth?


    Rather than on a company level, how do you think publicly available salaries might affect the industry? A lot of you have been in the industry a lot longer than me so I'm curious to see opinions.

    I dunno, if I worked in the same office as Michal Abrash I'd be appaled if he wasnt getting 5X my salary at least. I would be ecstatic just to be able to work with him.

    Quote from Jord

    This. Everyone should do Glassdoor.


    Question, do we think the game industry would have higher salaries if salaries were made more public? Would that raise the average salary if people started to figure out they were being paid less than they were worth?


    Rather than on a company level, how do you think publicly available salaries might affect the industry? A lot of you have been in the industry a lot longer than me so I'm curious to see opinions.


    Salaries would be higher if other companies knew what they were paying their employees. There's a natural incentive for the companies to offer more, in order to lure talent.


    Any attempt at collective collusion would be undermined by the companies' desire to get the best talent.

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