Recruiting process vs salary

This topic wouldn't exist if it was that straghtforward Sprony

As aniki says, a lot of companies put that generic line or leave it blank, occasionally you get a range (as for my experience, generally in job postings made by intermediaries on more general job boards) while another very common scenario is a company that asks you how much you expect to make if hired.

What you guys do in those cases: honestly indicate how much you are doing + some more, use a general formula like "the industry average for this position" or else?

Quote from Jord

What surprises me quite a lot is that people aren't willing to talk about what salary they earn. This rule really only benefits the company. We have to rely on the gamasutra surveys to find out what people are earning and no one ever has any idea what they're worth at their company.

It can get pretty unhealthy. As I already wrote, some guys are getting, lets say $7000, they are awesome so they earn a lot. Other guy with the same work time (work time is not experience!) can get even $2000 less because he's silent and with no giant success or just bad luck... You know what would happen if the second guy knows that he could get more $ just because showing his work a bit more (or stuff like this)? Madness. If industry would get a better classification for pay there would be no problem. Intern will get $A, Junior $B, Regular $C, Senior/Mentor $D, Team Lead $E and so on. The problem is that a lot of guys would be hurt by such classifications. Anyway, smart guys could get more classes like Senior Environment Artist, Team Leader and Mentor = $A+$B+$C.

I dunno, just thinking loud...

To add to this, make sure the company you're talking to is actually versed in international hiring. If it's the first time they do it, or are generally new to the business, you will absolutely need to do their homework for them.

Keep in mind many studios do not have a clue what work visas are and how hard they can be to get. They also can apply a base salary for your position as if you were local to that country, which may not work in your favor.

Quote from seir

It can get pretty unhealthy. As I already wrote, some guys are getting, lets say $7000, they are awesome so they earn a lot. Other guy with the same work time (work time is not experience!) can get even $2000 less because he's silent and with no giant success or just bad luck... You know what would happen if the second guy knows that he could get more $ just because showing his work a bit more (or stuff like this)? Madness. If industry would get a better classification for pay there would be no problem. Intern will get $A, Junior $B, Regular $C, Senior/Mentor $D, Team Lead $E and so on. The problem is that a lot of guys would be hurt by such classifications. Anyway, smart guys could get more classes like Senior Environment Artist, Team Leader and Mentor = $A+$B+$C.

I dunno, just thinking loud...

Yes, this definitely seems like a problem. Where I work there's clear banding of salaries, which is the only way it can really work fairly IMO. It's fine to pay people more if they're really good, but there should be bands that exist to cover such cases. This also aids career progression because if people are only getting incremental raises every year (i.e. barely covering inflation), sooner or later they'll hit a higher band and the company can take that opportunity to formally promote them and give them a few more responsibilities.

Without such a system, you can easily end up with the situation a lot of people in development (not just in gaming) end up in: working for years on end without being considered for any kind of new title, role, etc. This often isn't even a conscious decision on the company's part, they just have no systems to properly monitor people and help them succeed. Obviously some people are ambitious and won't settle for that, but many aren't yet are still invaluably productive — these guys usually end up disappearing one day after they've had enough of it, usually really jaded.

Quote from AlexM

Minos wrapped that up pretty good.

The only thing i'd like to add is it's worth looking at the gamasutra yearly game developer salary surveys to get a little bit of a ballpark on what jobs similar to yours earn.

Last time I checked Gamasutra they took Game Design and Level Design under the same category and to me it feels like it doesn't give me a good picture for what I can expect as a Level Designer.

Does anyone know how much different a Game Designer's salary is compared to Level Design? I'm very curious about this and I don't know where to turn but the salary lists from Gamasutra.

Edit:

It just struck me: why would you want to put Game Design and Level Design in the same category for wages? Aren't there more Level Designers than Game Designers overall on companies?

Quote from seir

It can get pretty unhealthy. As I already wrote, some guys are getting, lets say $7000, they are awesome so they earn a lot. Other guy with the same work time (work time is not experience!) can get even $2000 less because he's silent and with no giant success or just bad luck... You know what would happen if the second guy knows that he could get more $ just because showing his work a bit more (or stuff like this)? Madness. If industry would get a better classification for pay there would be no problem. Intern will get $A, Junior $B, Regular $C, Senior/Mentor $D, Team Lead $E and so on. The problem is that a lot of guys would be hurt by such classifications. Anyway, smart guys could get more classes like Senior Environment Artist, Team Leader and Mentor = $A+$B+$C.

I dunno, just thinking loud...

You're absolutely right, this will obviously happen. I just feel like more transparency in salary would benefit the industry.

Quote from Sjonsson

Does anyone know how much different a Game Designer's salary is compared to Level Design? I'm very curious about this and I don't know where to turn but the salary lists from Gamasutra.

Edit:

It just struck me: why would you want to put Game Design and Level Design in the same category for wages? Aren't there more Level Designers than Game Designers overall on companies?

LD and GD is pretty close when it comes to "making games" but not so close when comparing salaries. Check Glassdoor, you can see annual salaries for exact jobs. Here's some numbers:

Blizzard - Senior Level Designer ~$84,000 - http://www.glassdoor.com/GD/Salary/Bliz…=level+designer

Ubisoft - Level Designer ~$58,000 - http://www.glassdoor.com/GD/Salary/Ubis…=level+designer

A regular level designer at Ubisoft doesn't make that, that's a senior pay. And that's only in Montreal/Toronto, ie CAD not USD. If Europeans at Ubisoft made that kinda cash, no one would ever leave their studio....

Quote from seir

LD and GD is pretty close when it comes to "making games" but not so close when comparing salaries. Check Glassdoor, you can see annual salaries for exact jobs. Here's some numbers:

Blizzard - Senior Level Designer ~$84,000 - http://www.glassdoor.com/GD/Salary/Bliz…=level+designer

Ubisoft - Level Designer ~$58,000 - http://www.glassdoor.com/GD/Salary/Ubis…=level+designer

So LD and GD saleries in comparison isn't close to each other and they're put under the same category for the survery on Gamasutra that means that those numbers in the compiled survey results doesn't really say that much?

Also, that's a major difference I'd say, between Ubi and Blizz. I wonder what the gaps looks like between Seniors and Juniors - all these questions!

I think you just have to approach it on a case-by-case basis, there isn't really a standard in any development sector. Some companies simply pay more than others, and that isn't necessarily a reflection of their size.

To put it into perspective, I've worked at a place where the Ubisoft salary above is considered a high senior developer salary, and one where it's considered a low regular developer salary. It's worth bearing in mind that there's rarely just one salary for any given role, but a range that can span $15k or more depending upon experience, longevity within the company, and your asking price (i.e. what you were paid before).

Just never forget that the exact salary is only really relevant within the context of where you earn it. Going country-to-country or even city-to-city can make the numbers completely different due to different costs of living. If you're in the UK, you can expect to earn (and spend) £10k–£20k more simply for working in London rather than another town or city.

I think its worth noting that a lot of designer positions are very "art" related, so it is kind of hard to judge what your salary should be based off on your art. The guys selling paintings on the street sell their painting cheaply, whereas some paintings goes for millions just because its a different artist. But the time put into it might be same. But that doesn't mean the work has the same value.

Same goes for engineering, to an extent, as code is not always just code. And the output of one coder vs another can vary greatly. There's positive and negative sides to this kind of "invidual" payment system, but it is clear that it doesn't work right now as the base salary is just too low or nonexistant.

Quote from Jord

What surprises me quite a lot is that people aren't willing to talk about what salary they earn. This rule really only benefits the company. We have to rely on the gamasutra surveys to find out what people are earning and no one ever has any idea what they're worth at their company.

this pisses me of to no end aswell.

we had this exact same discussion in my team as well (one day while no management people were around) and i made the argument that this can only lead to people getting exploited so i broken the silence and told everyone what i earn and step by step everyone revealed what they made and turns out one of the art guys who had been at the company the longest was only making 1/3 of what everyone else was getting.

so if anyone cares i make 4.400 euros a month of which about 2.600 actually end up on my bank account every month.

EDIT: and i live in hamburg which is considered expansive by german standards but is dirt cheap to a lot of/all other euopean/US cites were i have ever hung out.

There's no way I'm ever gonna discuss my salary with anyone. I think I spoke to one guy at Frontier about how much we were on, back when I was still a graduate artist.. Luckily we were on the same amount. But it would have caused no end of problems if we'd have been on different salaries.

Though I would like to know what other people are on haha. Nosy bastard.

How would it have caused problems? Not being willing to talk about your salary is damaging to people in the industry and is why company's don't want you to. It's why they come up with bogus claims like it's illegal.

Well personally I wouldn't like to know if I was on more money than other people. It'd make me feel shitty, especially if we were equally skilled. I dunno, that's just how I feel. But then, I wouldn't mind knowing if that same person was earning more than me.

Ok then, so it turns out after thinking about this, I would agree that people should discuss salary. Perhaps not openly, but if you trust people then fair enough.

It's interesting how companies have successfully drilled it into everyone that discussing salary is somehow a bad thing. If someone on your team is on more or less than you, isn't everyone being aware of that a good thing?

The only downside I can see is that if someone finds out they're on significantly less than you (or vice versa) despite both being at more or less the same level in terms of skills then they might feel that the company is doing them a disservice and get hurt feelings. But once armed with that knowledge, they can then discuss it with the company or move elsewhere if need be — if they do nothing, they have nobody to blame.

As it is, people can just end up sat there for years not really knowing whether or not they could or should be earning more. I'm not saying everyone should be posting their salaries on Facebook or something, because obviously it's irrelevant to people outside your profession (or even team) and is likely to just cause jealousy in some cases. But there should be no shame in a team discussing each others' salaries so that everyone in the team knows how their employer is valuing them.

It suits companies very well if nobody knows that dude A is paid like twice as much as dudes B and C, because those dudes won't go chasing the company for more money and will remain blissfully ignorant that they could be earning twice as much if they pushed for it. That's definitely the biggest issue with this weird stigma about discussing salaries.

Well people from different teams can discuss their salaries, but in the same team it's hard because there is an inherent competition between people.

I guess it depends pretty much of how you feel about your coworkers, if they are friends there's a very possible chance the friendship will endure over the petty competition, otherwise if they are just colleagues who will forget about you the day you leave, don't; because since they don't care, you cannot be sure to not make mortal enemies. And that's when you can see people arguing over some vague criteria of justice like who does the best normal map, who has the most experience, who is the best friend of his lead, who has the best reputation, who is doing the most legitimate work, who is working on weekends etc. When at work in a very arbitrary fashion some people will always do the good stuff and will have the chance to work the legitimate skills and prove themselves to the team on the most important assets, and some others will be stuck on tweaking collisions and placing crates.

And in the end, what is worth the most ? make an amazing wall asset in 3 weeks, or spending two months on tweaking collisions and fighting coders for tools which would have made a shitty game if you didn't had.

It's tricky

For the company you are priced in terms of how rare it is to find what you do and are willing to do, giving they need it. And how hard it is to replace you.

Wow, that's some serious taxation Warby! Or you mean after paying off rent and other monthlies?

Anyway, agree on the fact that silence just benefits companies; personally I've never felt shy on money, I dunno why some people are so touchy. But in corporate environment it might happen to be kept under scrutiny, I was just talking sat night with friends and in just 5 that we were, three said their companies were actively threatening to different degrees the employees to have them not discuss their salaries.

On the level/game designer argument I understand, from different job descriptions, that some companies use almost interchangeably the two terms. And as reported above, other mix up a lot of art work.

All things considered though, one part of me appreciate the idea of being rewarded with higher pay.

Yeah and companies can fuck off with their "But you don't have much experience" bullshit. If I'm optimising half of your entire god damn game and fixing EVERYTHING that you don't know how to do, redoing work of senior artists because you don't think its good enough ... you can afford to pay me more than a mid-level salary. Experience or no, TA on AAA = you are kinda screwed they leave.