cp_proletariat

    I figured I would make my own thread by now, so here we are. I should be testing on tf2maps' server this thursday if you guys want to join in. Here is the post I just made at tf2maps.net:

    That detailing looks sick, man. I really like what I'm seeing in general, even if these huge stairs look weird for the moment.

    Good luck with your project, I think it has lots of potential.

    Alpha 2, motherfuckers. Should be testing in a few minutes on tf2maps.net server

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    And some detailing on red spawn

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    Nice JeanPaul, I really like the detailling style. I'll check the map tomorrow when I launch TF2.

    Also, don't pay too much attention to the haters on TF2M, most of them are pretentious assholes and give terrible feedback (they're a minority, but an annoying one at that). Which is a shame because their testing system is fantastic.

    It really is. So far a majority of people are telling me to "scrap in and start from sratch" or "this sucks, redo it". If I did nothing but listen to their criticism, I would think I have an incredibly shitty map on my hands as almost all of them tell me its just awful.

    They are just afraid of new things.

    Granted it is a bit tight in certain areas, but good goddamn, its the second alpha, I have changes to make!

    This is one of the nuttier maps I've played. There's a lot of cool stuff and neat places to go, things to see, and a giant fan that's really cool. The ideas have potential.

    The ones telling you to start over say so because they aren't as skilled as you and wouldn't be able to improve it. Also because they play alot of custom maps and have made alot of maps, and do know things about the game. You do need to restructure it. As I tried to explain on chat, but I don't think could communicate well, I jut think you need to separate the map into logical areas. Each area would have a CP and the associated routes.

    Consider these diagrams, (which are organizational/flow not layout)

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    Imagine the boxes contain the cp areas and the first third of all connecting areas, and the black lines contain the middle third of each connecting area. If you can sort the areas so that there is a recognizable structure that is readable, that would help gameflow tremendously. Players need to be able to understand the areas, how they relate, predict where enemies are coming from, quickly identify where a route goes to and identify where the route they are in goes to. Players also need concrete, defined 'arenas' to defend and attack as well as recognizable locations for communicating their and enemies positions. As it is the playspace is incoherent but cool.

    There does need to be more of a custom maps community in TF2, makers and players...more testing options, servers. The big problem is building the community for a server, finding people that want to play custom maps and getting them to stick.

    Now thats what I am talking about sir! That is some great feedback.

    I am going to try and incorporate your concept into my map and mainly for organizational purposes. Like you said, I think the biggest problem the kids at tf2maps were having is the fact that sometimes players have enemies coming from all directions. While this is the entire point of the map (lots of intense flanks in my map) I need to explain it better. I think if I change all my dev textures to a blue/red theme and outline what is where, it will help a lot. I am working on a3 right now doing just that and adding the appropriate sign/arrow placement to tell players where to go while also STILL opening it up and simplifying it. Once I have a more coherent play area, I think people will enjoy it a loooot more.

    I guess it just boggled my mind to see so many of those tf2maps.netters screaming "IM SO LOST" in the microphone considering my first alpha was a SIMPLIFIED version of avalanche. Even a2, which was an opened up and ever more simplified, they were all still so lost? I mean what happened since the Dod/Dod:source days? Did people lose all sense of direction? Either way, I still need to do a better job of directing players.

    Like I said earlier, its a little tight in some areas and overall pretty small. I want to open it up even more and make it a little larger but I still feel it works pretty well and I am going to stick with it. I am gone for the weekend, but I should have some more by next week.

    EDIT: I also want some mapcorians in my next test kthx

    Team coloring, signs, and the like are going to help tremendously. It helps a LOT!

    Why are people lost? I'll take a stab at that.

    I haven't played DoD in years and years, I don't know how to describe it to compare the two. TF2 has very structured battles revolving around moving the front between the CP's. Each class has a pretty defined role for each situation and doesn't really roam. Depending on the state of the map and the teams and your class you want to be in a very specific place and with specific other team members. Other games give you a wider range of options. (ex: DM map in which you can be anywhere and succeed.) Teams establish a defensive front around key points and offensive pushes with key classes to attack those points. If there are too many routes then the structure breaks down because there are no key points. DoD is similar but there are fewer classes and I'm sure major differences.

    TF2 has a different scale than all other source games. The TF2 player is taller, wider, and moves faster. The door and gate models look massive in Hammer but aren't in game. When the areas are small and stringy players see less of the area as they move through it and enter/exit it faster, which reduces the amount of 'visibility' the area has in their mind. There are also lots of turns. The more turns there are in a route the harder it is to know where you are and where the two places are in relation to each other. Using the 128unit square as a basis for the layout makes things constricted. Unfortunately using a 256unit-unit-area makes things bloated.

    Finally, TF2 has been out for years and at it's core is about simplicity. Everything in the game is simplified and abstracted. People are used to a certain kind of map, or at least certain design tropes. After four and a half years people play the game in a certain way, navigate in a certain way, etc. There is a mindset that you have to account for. People aren't used to seeing so many doors and stairs (especially stairs).

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