Star Wars The Old Republic

ok i cant be bothered waiting for you to answer this, anyway you're wrong in that it is well designed; because i can logically get to the conclusion that it isn't.

because the skilltree structure is the same for every class, it assumes every class has skill that are equally balanced at any given tier. this is a logical fallacy; for when balancing asymmetrical skills, you cannot assume that one skill is equal to another. so even though the template for the skill tree may seem well-designed, it allows for a huge error margin due to leaving out class balance in the skill tree. this is not good design by any means.

by contrast a balanced skill tree would recognize that each individual skill of each class is not equal to any other class' skill of the same tier. instead it would seek to regulate the individual classes between each other in order to preserve balance (this is an example of how it could potentially be done, there could be other ways of reaching the same result).

To be quiet honest with you, I only login once a day, gain one level, and then log out again. I am level 38 now and jesus fuck it's taking forever to do anything, with the vast distances between from where you got the quest and to the location you need to go. Plus playing Imperial Agent Sniper is just frustrating with a tank companion that probably will get buffed/fixed come Rapture, channeled abilities cancelling all the time (like Suppressive Fire which is a channeled AoE, where my channel is cancelled as soon as I start it and it still costs me 50 energy), the cover system being horrible as in "NO! I WANT TO TAKE COVER HERE ON THE SPOT, NOT ROLL ONE MILE TO THE LEFT BEHIND A BARRICADE, AGGROING 10 MOBS I NEVER INTEND TO KILL" in addition to the cover spot putting me in the wrong direction most of the time.

And not being able to use companion abilities or put them on autocast from the abilities menu STILL is retarded, as I have to manually activate my companions shield so she doesn't die like the worthless sack of shit she is when elites pop out. While engaged in a fight, I have to: Expand companion bar > click her ability > close the companion bar > continue , while the companion bar blocks access to your secondary bottom actionbar, where I have dots and stuff on.

Still, I am just playing this until Guild Wars 2 and/or Diablo 3, as it looks now.The $300 million dollars went where?

Quote from Serenius

WoW didn't invent skill trees, they just established a really well-designed implementation of them for an MMO. NEXT!

Please show me where I said they invented skill trees or I'm not dealing with this strawman. The only difference between implementation in these two games is in one you go up the tree and in the other you go down.

I like SW:TOR so far, but I'm not considering it nor playing it, as an MMO. When I've finished leveling I'll end my subscription. As far as I'm concerned this is KOTOR 3. This is also the complete opposite of how I usually play MMOs, where I would rush through the tedious leveling so I could get to the "real"/fun part of the game. The only motivation I have to play is to experience the star wars universe/story. The multiplayer is pretty much worthless unless you play exclusively for the story. I just finished a 30-45min dungeon and got 2200 exp for quest complete and perhaps 1000 or so from all the mobs.

Quote from csyver

I like SW:TOR so far, but I'm not considering it nor playing it, as an MMO. When I've finished leveling I'll end my subscription. As far as I'm concerned this is KOTOR 3. This is also the complete opposite of how I usually play MMOs, where I would rush through the tedious leveling so I could get to the "real"/fun part of the game. The only motivation I have to play is to experience the star wars universe/story. The multiplayer is pretty much worthless unless you play exclusively for the story. I just finished a 30-45min dungeon and got 2200 exp for quest complete and perhaps 1000 or so from all the mobs.

Don't miss some of the flashpoints. They offered huge story moments which tie into the previous games

Quote from Sentura

ok i cant be bothered waiting for you to answer this, anyway you're wrong in that it is well designed; because i can logically get to the conclusion that it isn't.because the skilltree structure is the same for every class, it assumes every class has skill that are equally balanced at any given tier. this is a logical fallacy; for when balancing asymmetrical skills, you cannot assume that one skill is equal to another. so even though the template for the skill tree may seem well-designed, it allows for a huge error margin due to leaving out class balance in the skill tree. this is not good design by any means.

by contrast a balanced skill tree would recognize that each individual skill of each class is not equal to any other class' skill of the same tier. instead it would seek to regulate the individual classes between each other in order to preserve balance (this is an example of how it could potentially be done, there could be other ways of reaching the same result).

That's an awfully long post that only conveyed the information that these two words could have covered: "I disagree."

Quote from Taylor

WoW didn't invent skill trees, they just established a really well-designed implementation of them for an MMO. NEXT!

Please show me where I said they invented skill trees or I'm not dealing with this strawman. The only difference between implementation in these two games is in one you go up the tree and in the other you go down.

I'm not trying to argue that the skill trees aren't laid out in a format like that of WoW's, just that having skill trees doesn't make a game "WoW"-like. There are some WoW-like elements, such as item text coloring, the existence of instanced dungeons, and an extremely responsive client interface compared to most MMO's. The majority of "this is like WoW, but Star Wars" comments are should be worded "this is like most theme-park MMO's that have come before, but Star Wars."

The game experience as a whole is vastly different than WoW. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be playing.

Quote from Serenius

That's an awfully long post that only conveyed the information that these two words could have covered: "I disagree."

you misunderstand, it's not opinion, it's fact. whether you think it's well-designed or not is irrelevant.

I'm really enjoying it so far. Its like KOTOR, mixed with the best parts of WoW, and you can mostly play it solo if you want to. Its basically KOTOR3 with optional multiplayer. I got it free too so ;D

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http://christwire.org/2011/12/star-wars ... -handlers/

Quote from Sentura

[Blocked Image: http://christwire.org/wp-content/uploads/Jedi-Knight.gif]http://christwire.org/2011/12/star-wars ... -handlers/

Thats hot! and speaking of

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I keep modding the same mask I have since I prefer it over other masks/helmets. I enjoy seeing the Dark V look.

Quote from Sentura

That's an awfully long post that only conveyed the information that these two words could have covered: "I disagree."

you misunderstand, it's not opinion, it's fact. whether you think it's well-designed or not is irrelevant.

Sorry Sentura, but I feel there are few facts in design no matter how strong your opinion is. I would take something imbalanced and varied over something balanced and dry any day. Significant imbalance too, that’s actually going to change battle outcome given two equally skilled players of the same level and equivalent gear (which is a can of worms in itself). The problem with MMORPG design is imbalance is often very hard to outplay, but this isn't an inherent the fault of the skill tree.

but that's the thing, something that is balanced is not necessarily dry. not every game has a balance as symmetrical as chess, and most games actually strive to create an asymmetrical balance. there isn't much research done on game balancing though, aside from games that have mirrored sides (which is a given basically), and most designers probably aren't fully aware of the implications of balancing a single object, so they come into the problem of creating imbalance instead. but i want you to understand that there is a difference between just having a mirrored game and having a balanced game - balanced games can have variety too. even mirrored games can.

for the most part i would agree with you, that there are few facts in design in general. but in creating mechanics and balance, games are a systematic construct. everything in a game happens for a reason - if you attack an opponent, there is a calculation for whether or not you hit the opponent. as such, one can deduct everything within the system of the game... including the game balance. that this formula may factor in things such as chance, items, difference in advancement (like game level differences between players) and difference in classes does not mean that it doesn't exist, it just means that it is that much more difficult to even out.

there is this guy called david sirlin who wrote a four part article on balancing multiplayer games, and basically he mentions in superficial terms how a multiplayer game can be balanced, and how it can even balance itself out (sort of like a cybernetic system). i recommend reading it, because it does give some basic insight into how balance works. and also just because it's one of the only genuine reads i have found on game balance.

part 1 can be found here (links to the other parts are somewhere on the page): http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancin ... tions.html

Balancing the perfect subject for an in-depth theoretical paper. Just about the only game I know of that I would consider "almost" balanced is Starcraft 1 and 2, and that's quite simply because it's an E-sport meaning you have endless professional data (players very equally matched) and Blizzard can afford to do it.

Developers care about it, the problem is it's more opinion driven than factual, unless you have enough reliable data. Minor balancing change will happen in SWTOR but only after due time is given.

To be fair, the players balanced Starcraft far better than Blizzard ever did. Broodwar was, on paper, obscenely unbalanced.

Quote from marks

To be fair, the players balanced Starcraft far better than Blizzard ever did. Broodwar was, on paper, obscenely unbalanced.

haha it was hilarious to go back to the campaign after a couple of years because the single player units didn't get the balance updates (since that would ruin the single player experience). The game was totally different, it was so weird.

I have read everything David Sirlin has written, including the articles he no longer keeps on his website such as teaching bread crumbing with the Donkey Kong Country example of a huge arrow of collectibles, and his old forums where he claimed he had achieved more than anyone else in the games industry.

But I don’t really see how this supports your claim that Skill Trees are factually incapable of balance, if anything it says the jury is still out because there’s so little research?

Though I’ll jump ahead and just say my controversial thing now: Where is the evidence that perfect balance is a good thing? Most of us are PC Gamers and used to frequent updates that alter the game hopefully moving it towards a more balanced state, but not all platforms work like this. If you went to a fighting game forum and complained about a 6:4 match-up people would just tell you to man up. Now, I'm not advocating 8:2 or 1:9 match-ups but is a little rough really that bad?

I absolutely love watching underdogs prosper and tier whores topple, if I’m watching some random a-cho video I know who I want to win before the match even starts. I usually end up playing low-mid tier (not by choice; tiers take years to finalise and initial predictions are usually wrong) and my most memorable wins are unsurprisingly those stacked against me. This is a whole area of enjoyment you lose in some theoretical "perfect" game.

i never said that skill trees were incapable of balance, i said that the current implementation of skill trees that are perceived as balanced or well designed, in fact, aren't. does this mean that skill trees are incapable of balance? no. does this mean that there aren't skill trees that are well balanced? no. what it means is that i am refuting the claim that the skill tree of e.g. wow is not balanced or indeed well designed, and that many mmo's haven't balanced their skill trees because the designers behind them have little to no clue on how to balance them. currently this is done on a trial by error base, in the form of playtesting.

i'm advocating that there could be theoretical ways of balancing a game out; perhaps not in a complete way, but as a catalyst that would improve the base of the balance in a game faster than the amount of playtesting it would have to go through to reach the same level. i obviously don't have the answer, but i think it's something that could be interesting to create.

as for your controversial subject, first off: de gustibus non est disputandum. i cannot account for what you or anyone else likes in a game, nor is this in my interest for the subject at hand. i also think that you're arguing something a bit different here. choice and perfect balance are not mutually exclusive factors in a game. you can choose to play a class or character that has trade-offs if you are so inclined, with whatever implications this has for the match or match-up. but giving yourself a handicap in this way should have no effect on the overall balance of the game; this is your choice in the game, not a choice that the game does for the sake for balance.

secondly, balance is a fickle thing. how would you go about defining balance in a game? how would you go about measuring balance in games? you mention tier lists; most if not all tier lists are not made by the companies releasing the game, but rather as a subjective gauge from seasoned players. while these players usually know what they are talking about, they still make mistakes, and they are still learning from the game. since tier lists are dealt in the realm of subjectivity (at least at the time of writing), they are too baseless to use as a method of properly gauging balance. however, i concede that i would consider any official tier list released from a game company for a given game the gold standard of balance for that game for no other reason than i would expect them to have done the calculations beforehand. this is probably why game companies do not release tier lists.

and even if they did, chances are that those tier lists would be highly theoretical and nowhere near as thoroughly tested as those lists that are created after a game has been released for years. i don't have a universal answer for the above questions, but i just recently submitted an academic paper on balance in games, where i used a pragmatic approach in trying to define balance and use it in competitive games as well as attempting to devise formulas of balance. it's barely scratching the surface of all of this, and by no means something i would call finished, but at least it shows how deep the implications of balance actually are, and what you take into account when you try to "balance" something in a game. if it gets accepted, i can let you know.

but i digress. ultimately, the question of whether "perfect" balance is necessary or even desirable for any given game is moot. however, all game designers should at least be able to attain to the knowledge of creating perfect balance in any given game, simply because this insight would allow them to create games of any level of balance below "perfect". or if it isn't possible to attain "perfect" balance, then at least attain the closest upper bound to it.

You will never experience that feeling you described with an MMO every again.

level 20, not going to go back to it, boring shitty game, samey mob encounters, nothing interesting in the world, maps are too big, movement is too slow, dungeons are shit after the level 10 one (lots of focus on that because everyone will do it and then keep playing to try and find another one like it).

overall, shitty game, time sink, money sink, empty worlds already (15 people in a pvp zone, lol why roll on a pvp server then), pvp is shit and unbalanced, boringly designed arenas that punish melee and reward range, no pvp builds, all skill trees are shit and give you very little rewards considering how tedious it is to level up.

storylines are bland and uninspired, no i don't want to fuck every lizard i meet, no i don't give a shit about dark side/light side because the rewards aren't shown to you often enough or at all.

don't know how anyone can defend this after galaxies.