it depends what people want out of a game. i would love a game where just exploring beautiful environments is the main thing.
for me, i enjoy all kinds of games. i just played a series of pretty bad games by many standards but i had an enjoyable time. why must everything be art, or be the next big innovation?
Quote from Sentura...yeah, that's what it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory that demonstrates why two people might not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to do so.
It's not in your best interest to co-operate in K&L. You're incentives are changed as the goal is to win (make the most money if I'm not mistaken).
If you cooperate, you will end up equal (not good). Your objective is to, exclusively, possess the most amount of money (translates into exclusively having the lowest jail sentence in the PD example).
Or so my feeble mind puzzles it together 
Quote from Rick_Dit depends what people want out of a game. i would love a game where just exploring beautiful environments is the main thing.for me, i enjoy all kinds of games. i just played a series of pretty bad games by many standards but i had an enjoyable time. why must everything be art, or be the next big innovation?
you're misunderstanding, i'm not saying everything should be the next big thing, i'm just saying it shouldn't be marketed as such.
(because you know, that's pretentious)
You know what happens when something isn't marketed like the next big thing?
Mini Ninjas (first example to come to mind)
then layoffs.
Or when you hit a bad patch: Pure, then Split/Second
then layoffs.
then studio closure.
I've been seriously trying to wrap my head around your train of thought, Sentura, but when you started comparing Journey to Dead Island, I couldn't help but start to believe that you're taking the piss.
not to dead island, just the first trailer that everyone was so hooked on. a cinematic trailer doesn't say anything about the game, yet everyone kept raving about it. sure it might get good marketing at the time, but by now everyone seems to have forgotten, or the released gameplay may not be up to par with the initial hype. in general i think the industry suffers from overhyping, since publishers seem to think that hype = sales. i'm not gonna go more into this though, since i don't know anything about it.
i think furyo may have had the only valid counter argument, though i doubt these guys are out to score the big bucks with this.
Quote from PuddyIt's not in your best interest to co-operate in K&L. You're incentives are changed as the goal is to win (make the most money if I'm not mistaken).
If you cooperate, you will end up equal (not good). Your objective is to, exclusively, possess the most amount of money (translates into exclusively having the lowest jail sentence in the PD example).
Or so my feeble mind puzzles it together
fair enough, it was just to give an example anyway.
Quote from Senturayou're misunderstanding, i'm not saying everything should be the next big thing, i'm just saying it shouldn't be marketed as such.
I can just imagine Jenova coming out and saying “hey, this is fl0w. It’s like Snake only it has inaccurate six-axis controls, none of that tricky collision stuff, and no objective.” They're entirely about marketing themselves as the next step in games. Ex: Chen: Designers Of Online Games 'Often Do Lazy Work'. Though, more power to them. And he does avoid stepping on any toes (unlike ToT).
Jenova sounds like a fuckin bummer.
Quote from Senturai think furyo may have had the only valid counter argument, though i doubt these guys are out to score the big bucks with this.
See, this is exactly why it baffles me that you rage about hype in this thread. So you compared Journey to the cinematic trailer of Dead Island then, well tha't s a completely different story then... 
Thatgamecompany is anything but a marketing-driven corporation. The only "marketing" I've seen done by them is in fact PR, by letting journalists play the game and let them talk about their experience. If you want to call them pretentious, for not being creative/innovative enough in their indie space, because you believe they use elements from previously released games - fair enough. On the other hand you don't seem to really know enough about the gameplay do you? Point is, complaining about hype trains in the gaming industry at the example of an indie title like this one is ludicrous.
I'd expect a more creative and new kind of marketing method by Thatgamecompany, not this outdated crap...
Quote from Senturasince i don't know anything about it.
Looks quite interesting. Has wonderful art direction, and the gameplay concept sounds novel if perhaps a little limited in how far it can go — but then that applies to most indie games. I can't help but want to see the next Zelda game use such a style rather than the uninspiring approach Nintendo's gone for. 
Quote from FrieChampSee, this is exactly why it baffles me that you rage about hype in this thread. So you compared Journey to the cinematic trailer of Dead Island then, well tha't s a completely different story then...
yeah, and oh, they still released that video that sparked this debate, but i guess that does not count as marketing. even if it was created by someone else, i'm sure it had to be greenlighted somewhere higher to be put out. but like i said before, people's reactions to this as if it was some sort of virtual gold are completely comparable to the dead island cinematic trailer, it was the same goddamn effect.
Quote from TaylorI can just imagine Jenova coming out and saying “hey, this is fl0w. It’s like Snake only it has inaccurate six-axis controls, none of that tricky collision stuff, and no objective.” They're entirely about marketing themselves as the next step in games. Ex: Chen: Designers Of Online Games 'Often Do Lazy Work'. Though, more power to them. And he does avoid stepping on any toes (unlike ToT).
oh boy. not only does he not come with something original, but he chastises other people for doing the same? flower isn't just 3d snake, it's new and original and fascinating. this is what pisses me off, he comes off as a hipster trying to introduce something we've all seen before in a new package, and it's sooooooo original. not to mention hypocritical and pretentious.
now i'm not saying he isn't right, someone else said that the industry is oversaturated with the same games, same type of games etc. and i agree. but he isn't exactly contributing to creating new stuff, and even if he was - would that really be what people want to play? if anyone really made a truly innovative game that did something original, i'm pretty sure people would just shrug it off, or not be able to understand it. the industry is hitting a limit here, how can you of all people not see this?
To be fair, all they've done is release a gameplay trailer — it's other people who've gone crazy and hyped the crap out of its visuals, and to be honest it's fairly justified because the game is genuinely beautiful.
what do you want then, sentura? what should the industry do?
Flower was nothing like Snake... it was just an exploration/collection game driven forward by cinematic weirdness. Closer to an adventure game than anything else in that respect.
To be honest I'm like Frie in that I'm only very loosely grasping the point being argued in this thread. Is it that game designers — who typically always think their work is the best thing since sliced bread and will usually be a little generous when describing it — shouldn't try to excite people about their work? Or is that they should forget the theatrics and just release gameplay trailers which can do the talking (which is incidentally what thatgamecompany does)?
You're right that there's a lack of entirely fresh ideas in the industry, but then the games industry is quite similar to the music and film industries in that respect: it's primarily driven by trends and iteration, and while any one segment of 3–5 years might seem very lacking in innovation, if you actually compare segments of 5–10 years you'll find they're very distinct.
There's no problem with the industry's evolution IMO, in fact gameplay is getting more varied than ever with the advent of motion detection and other peripherals. All TGC is trying to do is get people to try weird concepts they wouldn't ordinarily touch by making them sound cool and look all artsy fartsy.
Quote from ThrikFlower was nothing like Snake... it was just an exploration/collection game driven forward by cinematic weirdness. Closer to an adventure game than anything else in that respect.To be honest I'm like Frie in that I'm only very loosely grasping the point being argued in this thread. Is it that game designers — who typically always think their work is the best thing since sliced bread and will usually be a little generous when describing it — shouldn't try to excite people about their work? Or is that they should forget the theatrics and just release gameplay trailers which can do the talking (which is incidentally what thatgamecompany does)?
You're right that there's a lack of entirely fresh ideas in the industry, but then the games industry is quite similar to the music and film industries in that respect: it's primarily driven by trends and iteration, and while any one segment of 3–5 years might seem very lacking in innovation, if you actually compare segments of 5–10 years you'll find they're very distinct.
There's no problem with the industry's evolution IMO, in fact gameplay is getting more varied than ever with the advent of motion detection and other peripherals. All TGC is trying to do is get people to try weird concepts they wouldn't ordinarily touch by making them sound cool and look all artsy fartsy.
you... go around flowers, collecting petals. with each petal, the size of your entity (wind of petals or whatever it is) increases with more petals. this is exactly the same thing that happens in snake; you "eat" "food" and get a larger tail. that they added exploration and other such features has no effect on the core gameplay, even if it does have an effect on the player experience.
and the trailer they released showed nothing. it was supposed to be multiplayer, but there was only one person? the goal was to, what, collect banners to proceed to the next area? this is supposed to be original? THIS, of all things, deserves praise? i understand that jenova chen has some rigid beliefs that he should create game experiences with emotional or social relevance, but seeing how little effort he actually puts into the gameplay, it could just as well be short films or animated .gifs or a gallery of images that he did. yet he acts like he's a great designer and that other designers in the games industry should follow his wisdom, and everyone praises him for it.
ill sum up my gripe here (since it is apparently hard to understand): studio makes a game and claims it is original. studio releases trailer about game that show next to no gameplay, and the small part of gameplay that the trailer shows isn't original. yet the trailer receives high praise and the game gets hyped.
Quote from Senturaill sum up my gripe here (since it is apparently hard to understand):
People understand you, they simply aren't agreeing with you. Seriously stop derailing every thread regarding stuff that us dumb sheeple like.
Quote from Senturayou... go around flowers, collecting petals. with each petal, the size of your entity (wind of petals or whatever it is) increases with more petals. this is exactly the same thing that happens in snake; you "eat" "food" and get a larger tail. that they added exploration and other such features has no effect on the core gameplay, even if it does have an effect on the player experience.
that comparison is such a stretch. how are these games anything alike gameplay-wise? does the tail in flower affect the gameplay in any way? (unlike snake)
although i enjoyed flower, i agree that this video was pretty boring. that's not necessarily because the game is bad, but rather that the game doesn't really translate well to video previews.
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