Piracy is the great equalizer

he's right in some way - were are few of us who could affort all of theyr software as students (the ones that'd have cost you 1000 bucks and more ) and it's a market-law that producer/seller and consumer will find a price the consumer can affort and the seller can get down to. I'd bet my ass if Adobe would sell Photoshop to students for 50 bucks they'd not see half the amount of illegal copies (altough adobe has some very fair student pricing already). If people think they get something worth the money they spend they'll spend it - you can see that with game-selling-numbers - A developer who brought you a good game and support before will more likely sell a good number of copies on his next product (taken the price is not overly expensive) while a developer who didn't support his former game enough will most probably not sell as many copies of his next game and more people will pirate the game. Now the pirating hurts the developer with missed sales and he's gotta look is his product either overprized or is his support not good enough - You can see that happening with spore atm.

there's a good comment on that page as well:

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Right or wrong and for better or worse, piracy is a form of protest, and can occasionally be effective. I don't think that very many people pirate games because they prefer it to buying, all else equal; folks pirate as a form of civil disobedience in protest of high prices, low quality, and DRM. Many of us who don't pirate still take part in an even older form of protest—not buying the game. Unfortunately, simply not buying doesn't send much of a message. I think games-abstinence can be compared to not voting while piracy could be compared to voting for a third-party candidate; one is impossible to differentiate from apathy, but the other indicates (at least in the abstract) a pent-up demand for fundimental change. If a game debuts to few sales, a publisher may think the game is just a dud, but if it debuts to low sales and an army of piracy and Amazon star-bombing, that might send the message that demand exists for something very similar to, but not exactly what's being offered.

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Right or wrong and for better or worse, piracy is a form of protest, and can occasionally be effective. I don't think that very many people pirate games because they prefer it to buying, all else equal; folks pirate as a form of civil disobedience in protest of high prices, low quality, and DRM. Many of us who don't pirate still take part in an even older form of protest—not buying the game. Unfortunately, simply not buying doesn't send much of a message. I think games-abstinence can be compared to not voting while piracy could be compared to voting for a third-party candidate; one is impossible to differentiate from apathy, but the other indicates (at least in the abstract) a pent-up demand for fundimental change. If a game debuts to few sales, a publisher may think the game is just a dud, but if it debuts to low sales and an army of piracy and Amazon star-bombing, that might send the message that demand exists for something very similar to, but not exactly what's being offered.

[Blocked Image: http://alexandertaylor.net/stuff/factual.jpg]

It's certainly very glamorous to think it as a protest, but I don't believe this holds true for the majority. I don't see little Johnny Iota downloading CoD4 for any other reason than it being free.

In the context of development software I do agree there is a dilemma. If you want a job using programs like Photoshop, 3D Studio Max or Maya you need to learn it by having the software, which are priced for organisations. While these programs do have student versions and trails, I'll concede to any argument that states these are lacklustre.

Quote from Taylor

It's certainly very glamorous to think it as a protest, but I don't believe this holds true for the majority. I don't see little Johnny Iota downloading CoD4 for any other reason than it being free.

i think you're missing the point here: even him downloading it for the reason that it is free is a protest against something, in this case either pricing, delivery or both. the choices made within piracy usually start with a thinking line going, "fuck that, ..."

I understood what he was trying to say. I think you're giving the average pirate (Johnny Iota) too much credit to say their motivation is anything but getting something for nothing, which is not a protest against pricing, drm, quality, etc. nor is it really a side-effect. I'm sure it's true for some people, but not the majority.

Edit: I need sleep.

I havent read it all, but I seem to largely agree. Surely there will always be some who download things anyhow, but there is also a group who download because they believe the price is too high (those many crappy games that sell for 50 euro - I want to pay 50 euro for Bioshock [oh wait I dont cause I spend 8 hours just to get it to boot and yes I bought it], but not for all those mid range games), or that the product tries to screw you (hi DRM and Spore, bad console ports, etc.).

Piracy is not just caused by selfish bastards, it is usually an indicator of a bigger problem, a flow, a shortcoming, something. It is up to the publishers and developers to try and tackle these problems. Fix the cause, not the result...

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Surely there will always be some who download things anyhow, but there is also a group who download because (...)

True, I believe it is unrealistic to assume that there is a way to fix piracy once and for all. Instead developers/publishers should try to find a way to minimize it and that is by winning those people over who occasionally pirate a game in between legit purchases. At least that would be the first reasonable step and you don't achieve that with tougher copy protection systems.

Quote from Taylor

I understood what he was trying to say. I think you're giving the average pirate (Johnny Iota) too much credit to say their motivation is anything but getting something for nothing, which is not a protest against pricing, drm, quality, etc. nor is it really a side-effect. I'm sure it's true for some people, but not the majority.Edit: I need sleep.

again you're saying the same thing. i'm not giving the average pirate any credit at all, i am just assuming he downloads something for free, an action which is in itself a protest. you're thinking of protest as in some sort of boycott. johnny is thinking that he gets it for free.

It really is a simple rule, if you can't afford something, you don't get it. Why is it any different for software than stealing something from a shop? the answer is because it's simply easier to do.

If it's not yours to take, don't take it. No amount of bullshit can make it right. Unless you really are a pirate Your far more of a person to not give in to easy stealing, which is exactly what it is.

Games ain't be products, chris. Games are services. By buying a game you should know that you get patches, support and content on the product - you don't pay for the disc but for the service that comes with it. If a Game Dev will not support his game it's kind of worthless esp, if it has bugs or is a mp-title that would require certain content updates for long-time fun.

Quote from e-freak

Games ain't be products, chris. Games are services. By buying a game you should know that you get patches, support and content on the product - you don't pay for the disc but for the service that comes with it. If a Game Dev will not support his game it's kind of worthless esp, if it has bugs or is a mp-title that would require certain content updates for long-time fun.

Errm no, games are goods, not services - at least in the macroeconomical sense.

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In macroeconomics and accounting, a good is contrasted with a service. A good here is defined as a physical (tangible) product capable of being delivered to a purchaser and involves the transfer of ownership from seller to customer, say an apple, as opposed to an (intangible) service, say a haircut.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_(economics)

There might be services like support that are tied into the product and come with a purchase, but these are secondary components of the deal. Does anyone even read those EULAs when buying/installing a game? Frankly I do not, would be interesting if somebody can tell how publishers handle such support services in detail, for example guarantees, expiration etc.

Why are you bringing this up in relation to piracy by the way? I'd say most pirates (YARR!) use their cracked copies for SP only and don't make use of MP or patches, because of cd-key verification, new cracks for new patches etc

Quote from Sentura

again you're saying the same thing. i'm not giving the average pirate any credit at all, i am just assuming he downloads something for free, an action which is in itself a protest. you're thinking of protest as in some sort of boycott. johnny is thinking that he gets it for free.

Yes, I basically reiterated my point.

Saying "I'm downloading this because if I buy it I have to put up with DRM" is a protest. I don't see how someone downloading something for free, for the sole reason that they want it for free, is a protest. It’s just stealing, and should be labelled as such.

Quote from e-freak

Games ain't be products, chris. Games are services. By buying a game you should know that you get patches, support and content on the product - you don't pay for the disc but for the service that comes with it. If a Game Dev will not support his game it's kind of worthless esp, if it has bugs or is a mp-title that would require certain content updates for long-time fun.

What this has to do with my comments I don't know Services are also purchased, not illegaly stolen If you pirate a game because the lack of support or issues with something, shame on you because you are contributing towards the lack of investment towards after support. In the long run piracy screws everything up.

On the other hand, if it wasn't for the piracy, 99% of us wouldn't be here, wouldn't we?! :wink:

Or you're gonna tell me you bought every single game you played when you were 16 and still learning to map, model, or whatever gamedev related. :roll:

Personally, I can now finally buy most of the games I play, but it wasn't always like this!

I've purchased every game I've ever played I'm not perfect, had to hax Maya a few times.

Quote from Taylor

again you're saying the same thing. i'm not giving the average pirate any credit at all, i am just assuming he downloads something for free, an action which is in itself a protest. you're thinking of protest as in some sort of boycott. johnny is thinking that he gets it for free.

Yes, I basically reiterated my point.

Saying "I'm downloading this because if I buy it I have to put up with DRM" is a protest. I don't see how someone downloading something for free, for the sole reason that they want it for free, is a protest. It’s just stealing, and should be labelled as such.

but even stealing is a form of protest, which was my point.

And my point is, unless given a valid context, it's not.

Quote from Taylor

And my point is, unless given a valid context, it's not.

Which is true.

Quote from Taylor

And my point is, unless given a valid context, it's not.

fact is that most if not all people had enough wealth and were given enough service, they would not steal. ergo is stealing a protest. in our specific case, this holds true: if johnny had enough money and service, he'd not pirate; thus making stealing (or in this case, warezing) a protest against a) prices and b) service.

QED