Trouble Designing A Layout

this is what I experienced in the latest project i'm at: we looked at goldrush like forever, tried to characterize every single point of the map (e.g. why is point 1 in stage 1 and 2 always in a closed space while point two is completely open? how is the flow (see the deathmaps here as well) towards the capture points and which role does which way/path play to a certain event point (a heavy death-zone or an imba sniping position)). try to abstract as much as possible and then go back to your own original concept, check if the rules/sightings you made on goldrush (or any other pl map you cinsidered half-way working) would work on your map as well (without copying the maplayout) and then back up additionally with class specific spots (e.g. no close combat labyrinth all over the map as it would make the sniper irrelevant, not everything open as a soccer stadium (snipers) and not 100 covered balconys (engineer)... etc)

Could have many factors. Not knowing the game well enough to make percise decisions, too high expectations (you don't always have to reinvent the wheel), lack of confidence to make a decision.

Are you lacking a general overall idea for your level, that usually would provide you with inspiration?

You should make a list of things, you want to have in your map, Visually/Gameplay/Feature wise.

Think of what your map is supposed to be. Example: A multiplayer map for TF2, gametype payload, suited for 20 players, focusing on a fast paced gameplay and excelling visuals.

This should provide enough information to start something to build on. Of course you got to know how to provoke a fast paced gameplay etc. to accomplish you goal.

I'm working on a Payload map, I think it should work out pretty nicely.

Admittedly though, it is hard to come up with a layout without taking too much from Goldrush. Firstly, I would design your payload map section by section. Work on an overall theme for your map (where you want it to take place), but then only work on the first section. Get that fine-tuned in terms of gameplay, then move on to the next section.

I started working on my layout in Photoshop, I drew the route for the payload first, it's just a simple 'S' shape really. After that I put down the Blu/Red spawns and then started to add the secondary routes through the map. The main thing to remember when designing a Payload map is having sections that are initially closed off to the attacking team. When their payload reaches a certain point, these routes should open up so there are more ways to get further into the map.

Apart from that though, you've just gotta brainstorm some ideas and try it out. I spent a couple of weeks working on the layout for my map and then blocking it out in Hammer.

The paper layout approach never really worked for me, at least in the way that I always understood it. Expecting to take a 2D overhead drawing and translate it into 3D is sorta nonsense in my opinion. It's useful for a collection of ideas and going through the motions of figuring certain things out but in the end I find so many of the best decisions are made on the fly and just screwing around with the geometry in editor to get a sense of what works best and what doesn't for the layout/composition/connections between areas.

I have no real good advice for the best process of getting a level going, but I always find the seat-of-your pants approach works best for me. Which probably stems mostly from the fact that I can't draw for shit, so the editor has always been the best tool for me. All I'd say is create one small section of your level that encompasses some of the main ideas you want to include regarding gameplay/theme/architecture/shape/lighting whatever and expand from that one piece. That's essentially how I've done every level I've made (and still do).

Try not to think about it and just get something on screen that looks cool and go from there. I always felt like I was pissing away time over thinking a layout or idea, when I could have just been rolling with it in 3D.

Maybe it wont be too helpfull but I've seen 1000s of your layouts, are you ever going to finish any of these?

Try using some of your past ideas.

Quote from Erratic

The paper layout approach never really worked for me, at least in the way that I always understood it. Expecting to take a 2D overhead drawing and translate it into 3D is sorta nonsense in my opinion. It's useful for a collection of ideas and going through the motions of figuring certain things out but in the end I find so many of the best decisions are made on the fly and just screwing around with the geometry in editor to get a sense of what works best and what doesn't for the layout/composition/connections between areas.I have no real good advice for the best process of getting a level going, but I always find the seat-of-your pants approach works best for me. Which probably stems mostly from the fact that I can't draw for shit, so the editor has always been the best tool for me. All I'd say is create one small section of your level that encompasses some of the main ideas you want to include regarding gameplay/theme/architecture/shape/lighting whatever and expand from that one piece. That's essentially how I've done every level I've made (and still do).

Try not to think about it and just get something on screen that looks cool and go from there. I always felt like I was pissing away time over thinking a layout or idea, when I could have been just rolling with it in 3D.

Exactly my take on it. Which is somewhat ironic when I was at my last job interview I was pretty much shunned for using that method of creating a map as their idea of Level Designer was someone who drew their ideas on paper.

Quote from Buddy

Maybe it wont be too helpfull but I've seen 1000s of your layouts, are you ever going to finish any of these? Try using some of your past ideas.

For this i have to agree.

I've seen many stuff from you, and I never seen any completed. Are you aware that being able to take a project from start to finish is one of the best qualities a person can have, and this applies to the games industry as well. Making a map, a game, or anything games related takes time, and a lot of effort. So I'd say stick with your projects, finish them, and move on to a fresh one!

Good luck

Quote from dux

Exactly my take on it. Which is somewhat ironic when I was at my last job interview I was pretty much shunned for using that method of creating a map as their idea of Level Designer was someone who drew their ideas on paper.

Yeah, I find it weird for companies to be demanding in terms of process. Everyone approaches something differently, so long as it works who gives a shit.

I find just two uses for planning out a map on paper- explaining your ideas to someone else before you make the map, and someone who can't map explaining their ideas for it to you.

I tend to start maps not on purpose, but after a random thought while doing something else for the concept, buliding on it, and having an idea halfway finished in my head. I then essentially "sketch" out what I want in Hammer/UnrealEd, make a flow for gameplay, then go back and detail it. Sometimes this pattern doesn't exactly work- sometimes you have to start with details depending on complexity. For example, if I'm making an outdoor map that's essentially one giant displacement, I'll start with the displacement to create the land geometry before anything else. A large 8x8 (or 12x12, or whatever I need) grid of smaller displacements set to the highest detail level, molded all at once, then the center cut out and blown up in size to make the actual gameplay area, with the outer edges being a skybox. It's how I made this (currently unfinished) map:

[Blocked Image: http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/1672/jsldf1bn5.th.jpg][Blocked Image: http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/3484/jslmap1wq2.th.jpg][Blocked Image: http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/7889/jslmap2dq2.th.jpg]

Here's an idea for a payload map I sketched in MSPaint a few days ago:

[Blocked Image: http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/7973/plmaper6.jpg]

What I couldn't draw in there is that the path slopes sharply downhill along the cart's path, and the thick black lines crossing the path are overhead balconies accessable through the side warehouses inside the two curvy cliffs the path is shaped by. Simple map, no multiple zones, and a simple path, but I thought it had potential and wanted to ask my friends' opinions of it.

If you need inspiration and can't find any, go play some games. Not just TF2 payload maps, anything. You never know what bit of geometry or gameplay could trigger an idea.

Level design with paper is good, but it's not the end of the world if you just map on the fly, great results can be achieved with both methods. However, working on a level for a game that isnt playable yet is a completely different affair, paper design is required for budget reasons and others. My suggestions in this case would be to take notes of the official level, and why you think it works. Look at things like choke points - how wide they are, timing runs, elevation, cover, accessability and pickup locations. You don't have to follow these like rules, but they are proven to work well, change if you feel hard enough

Even if you don't want to sketch or plan, at least play the game enough to understand it very well.