Fitna

Wow... that's some movie alright!

I honestly do not understand this Allah paranoia, and tbh I don't even want to...

I'm so glad I'm an atheist.

things like these are the reason i never went into politics. the amount of commotion you get for a thing like that is absurd. it's not even a question about faith any more, it's just about who's right and who's wrong.

Quote from e-freak

i don't think it's so much about atheism or islam or christianity (i call myself christian) but about the freedom of speech and the question why we don't allow a movie that deals about islam with such an opinion and on the other hand allow far more onesided movies about every other religion, group or ideology.

Exactly what I was thinking when I heard about this on the news, I do believe that the creator of this movie wanted to show the people that the Islam is a dangerous religion in some cases.

Quote from e-freak

i don't think it's so much about atheism or islam or christianity (i call myself christian) but about the freedom of speech and the question why we don't allow a movie that deals about islam with such an opinion and on the other hand allow far more onesided movies about every other religion, group or ideology.

Because in other religions you don't have so many nutcases killing completely uninvolved civilians for anti-islamic messages. Nobody disallows Wilders to release such a film, but he was "asked not to" because he just pours gas into the fire. What kind of message is this that he delivers in this film, or better yet - what solutions does he offer? "Defend our freedom"? Am I supposed to tear down a mosque now, because extremist preachers might hide inside? Or attack women wearing a burqa?

I wish we could just forget about religions all together and come up with some standards on how all of us can live together peacefully.

I disagree that atheism is dangerous. You have to see that all religious people who actualy believe in their fairy tales have delusions. A delusion is a neurotic mental disorder. Atheism is no delusion. It's a normal state of mind and therefore cant be considered dangerous. All trouble between religious and atheist people is caused by the religious delusions in the first place. If an atheist uses force to make his point then this is a problem of his individual character and not his atheist view of the world.

Interesting point e-freak - if you don't believe in any god is that a belief too, in a paradox way? I agree it bares the danger of setting this "disbelief" above other people's beliefs, making them seem less educated and naive, which creates conflict as well.

In a perfect world WITH religion, everyone would just believe in whatever he wants to believe in AND LET OTHERS BELIEVE what they want to believe in. The inherent problem of any religion though is that there is one creator, one right way of life and all other religions are wrong. This causes conflict among the different religious groups and between religious people and any other person that is non-conformist to their way of life/set of rules. Of course the majority of religious preachers and followers are probably very peaceful in the way they practice their religion, but there will always be extremists, who make use of fear, hate, violence and influence others to do the same.

In my humble opinion, everyone is welcome to believe in what they wanto to, I'm trying hard not to judge anyone, but look back in history - or better yet, scratch that, don't - just drop whatever god you believe in right now, use your common sense, live life they way YOU want to, make the world a place that YOU and your children would want to live in and don't let others tell you on what to do or not to do - make up your own mind about what is right or wrong and don't waste your time. There is my religion. OOPS!

Your points are flawed e-freak. Atheism is a state of mind not a organized system like religions. I don't even know why you have to bring up communism here. Smells like leftovers from cold war fear.

Also atheism isn't a belief. Atheism = disbelief. To proof religious beliefs as delusional is also very easy. Delusion means that one beliefs in superstitious things and no logical argument against it can change his view. This clearly applies to all religions cause all of them have superstitious fairytales in them that make no sense at all from a rationalistic point of view. Even if you belief in one delusion (i guess the christian in your case) you would agree with me that other religions like the mormon church or scientology make no sense at all and are obviously delusional. An outsider to christianity can only look at it in the same way.

do i smell an angry atheïst..? imo opinion religion is not about who is wrong or who is right. if you dont believe in anything, what is your right to judge other peoples believes (when youve obviously not have had the experience of believing in something religious) and call them fairytales? its offending and childisch, so stop it. if you say youve got no problem with other peoples believes then stop offending people based on what they believe. i sometimes get very tired of some atheists.

anyways.. i dont agree with Wilders, i think he is too agressive, but on the other hand he makes us think about democracy and our values and how that is changing and evolving. i think thats good. also, he knows how to make the contrast between cultures very visible. i know he's not elegant in this, but the muslim communities have reacted so extremely outrageous about 1 (ONE) comic about their prophet and now this.. its almost painfull to see this, and in some respect worrying.. im more afraid of the passivenes and over-the-top tollerance of the west then the agression from the east tbh.

thats my two cents

My disgust for Catholicism has its root since I was born, mainly because it was imposed over me just like every other kid. I had no choice but go to the church on sundays, listen to boring and meaningless prayers and then go home to see my parents doing exactly the opposite of what the religion told them to do. I'm not saying they were perverts or anything, they were normal people but if they did exactly what they were told to by the religion they wouldn't live their lives. What is it with society that when someone says he doesn't have a religion he is instantly labelled as immoral? Anyways, as a kid I forced myself to believe in god because I'd go to hell otherwise. At least that's what older people told us. And then I started having history classes at school and learned about the inquisition and totally hated the fact the Church used to burn people alive just because they had another view of the world, amongst other cruel things (they were also responsible for converting the native brazilian indians and enslaving them afterwards). There's a saying here "you only get to know a person when you give him power" and that's valid in this case. I also started questioning the Bible, Jesus etc... It made no fucking sense at all, besides the fact that it was rewritten quite a few times, according to the needs of powerful people, so if Jesus really existed and spoke the truth it's totally distorted now because of those "revisions".

And then I decided to reject anything catholic because it didn't represent the world I wanted to live in. That was one of the best things I have done to my life, as I can see how much freedom I have now and figured you can actually be a "good person" without the need to pray or listen to preachers (everyone else told me the opposite). That doesn't mean I don't believe in anything, I know there must be some sort of after life but I have no idea what it is and until I witness it I'll refuse to believe in any religions.

I'm ok with other people's beliefs though, I just get pretty mad when people try to convert me or judge me because of my beliefs

Quote from killertomato

do i smell an angry atheïst..? imo opinion religion is not about who is wrong or who is right. if you dont believe in anything, what is your right to judge other peoples believes (when youve obviously not have had the experience of believing in something religious) and call them fairytales? its offending and childisch, so stop it. if you say youve got no problem with other peoples believes then stop offending people based on what they believe. i sometimes get very tired of some atheists.

It's the right of free speech. Something that doesn't exist in countrys ruled by religious leaders. If you feel offended fine. Religious people always get offended by anything that doesn't fit in their view of the world.

Quote from e-freak

Atheism CAN be seen as a delusion as well and is in the same way a "state of mind" as religious world-views. Its just a philosophic design which religion extends with an background.

That's not correct because atheism is in no way related to believe in superstitious thinking which is a necessary point for the definition of a delusion.

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Oh and - Scientology is not a religion. They enjoy certain law-protections in some parts of the world (such as the US) which occur to be meant to protect religious-freedom but that doesnot make them a legit religion, does it?

Scientology is a sect or a cult. If you look at the history of all religions they started as the same. If scientology started 2000 years ago and would still exist you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between this cult and all the other cults that are now considered religions. Our perception of scientology is only different because we actualy life in the time period where it starts to spread out.

Quote from e-freak

That's why the tibetian monks are being slaughtered? By the *sigh* atheist dictatorship in peking?

Again you bring up communism. Atheism is not the point of communism its only a side product. And communism itself is as dangerous as religion. It even follows some of the same princibles of religion. In China Jesus, Allah or whoever got replaced by a picture and legends of Mao. In soviet union it was Lenin, Stalin etc.