the daily "how was your day?" extravaganza 2008

Quote from Thrik

No amount of mandatory hardening (which is also wrong IMO) can make you a killer if you have no such inclination, unlike those who sign up of their own accord.

I don't really agree, Thrik. Unless you're a serious peacenik who actively ignores / rails against all training offered to you, you will be trained to do your job -- the job being killing other people. Once you drill something enough times while aiming at human-shaped targets using real weapons in a stimulus-reaction scenario, the action (shooting at the target) becomes automatic. There is no "oh the humanity" moment prior to a well-trained soldier pulling the trigger.

Modern day soldiers are basically trained to run on autopilot as if everything is just one big target range -- you can't be a good soldier without it. If you read some accounts of WW2, you'll see why this is. Back then, it is estimated that only a fraction of soldiers actually tried to shoot at the enemy. Imagine how quickly you'd lose a modern war if most of your soldiers did that and the enemies are going all out to kill you...

Most armies have learned from the 'problems' of outdated/ineffective training methods and now have solved the 'problem'. Knowing that your enemy isn't a faceless machine doesn't come into it. You won't be thinking when you're pulling the trigger, you'll just be pulling the trigger and moving on to the next target. Kinda scary, but that's the reality of it.

Quote from Defrag

I don't really agree, Thrik. Unless you're a serious peacenik who actively ignores / rails against all training offered to you, you will be trained to do your job -- the job being killing other people. Once you drill something enough times while aiming at human-shaped targets using real weapons in a stimulus-reaction scenario, the action (shooting at the target) becomes automatic. There is no "oh the humanity" moment prior to a well-trained soldier pulling the trigger.

Modern day soldiers are basically trained to run on autopilot as if everything is just one big target range -- you can't be a good soldier without it. If you read some accounts of WW2, you'll see why this is. Back then, it is estimated that only a fraction of soldiers actually tried to shoot at the enemy. Imagine how quickly you'd lose a modern war if most of your soldiers did that and the enemies are going all out to kill you...

Most armies have learned from the 'problems' of outdated/ineffective training methods and now have solved the 'problem'. Knowing that your enemy isn't a faceless machine doesn't come into it. You won't be thinking when you're pulling the trigger, you'll just be pulling the trigger and moving on to the next target. Kinda scary, but that's the reality of it.

i actually think thrik is right here. what you're saying is if you're weak and succumb to the propaganda (i'm sorry but it is), then yes, you will be able to shoot people without any moral obligations. if you have absolutely no inclination whatsoever, you will be smart enough not to be put into battle in the first place. the ones that do get into battle and kill without mercy will later have a heightened chance of being shellshocked (post traumatic stress disorder), leaving them at a lower mental health level for a long time if not until death. suppressing emotions comes at a price.

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what you're saying is if you're weak and succumb to the propaganda (i'm sorry but it is), then yes, you will be able to shoot people without any moral obligations.

I wouldn't really characterise it as 'propaganda'. It's not really an ideological thing -- it's simply teaching someone to be better at their job via responding to an input with an targeted response.

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if you have absolutely no inclination whatsoever, you will be smart enough not to be put into battle in the first place.

If you're a soldier who is conscripted / drafted and you want to survive, it is in your best interests to soak up the training and give yourself the best chance of surviving. I agree that this sort of conditioning is quite scary, but war is fucked up in general. Even famous people and established sportsmen often have to do their service in countries that have mandatory service; it's not like everyone who doesn't want to fight can just duck out of it and they'll be excused. I would never want to join the army and potentially have to hurt or kill others, but if I was drafted and there was the possibility that I would be placed in situations where my life and the lives of my friends would be at risk, I would want to come out alive, even if it meant the enemy (faceless or otherwise) would not.

You are definitely correct regarding the potential for post-traumatic stress, guilt and various other mental issues that come after a tour of duty, but you have to survive the battlefield first and worry about that later. There's various things that can be done to manage it, but it's still an ongoing area of research. In typical human fashion, we are pretty damn good at conditioning to kill & destroy, but repairing the damage is almost like an afterthought.

I'm not trying to say that this sort of training is moral or immoral, just that is necessary if you want to be a 'good' soldier.

I had a good day. And got a bunch of stuff from amazon ;o

Also bought some ice cream.

Now stop talking about war and get back on topic >;/

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I wouldn't really characterise it as 'propaganda'. It's not really an ideological thing -- it's simply teaching someone to be better at their job via responding to an input with an targeted response.

It's actually teaching you to suppress emotions, turn off your brain, not to respect other's lives at any cost and, well, vilify those who you're fighting with. Nothing can excuse that. No money, no better life, no piece of land or anything can make that up. Hence why it is called propaganda. Not the typical one, but it still teaches a single-sided doctrine.

The British army can take anyone and turn them into trained killers, its their job to do so. You follow the orders and do what you're told else you die. Simple as. If you don't follow the rules or don't want to you get thrown out. Once the rounds start flying, emotion/morals goes out the window and adrenaline and training takes over.

My day so far has been good, woke up with GF as usual and lazed around for a bit, went to tesco for some supplies but now I have to do Uni work.

Quote from ginger_lord

The British army can take anyone and turn them into trained killers,

We make them play GTA.

And Postal. That's why we're so damned hardcore.

omg !!!

i just called at the kindergarten i had my job interview at 2 weeks ago, to see whether i can go there next year of have to go into the city again and YES YES YES !!! she said, it should be in my mailbox today or tomorrow.

so finally, after 2 years of learning how be a kindergarten teacher i'll earn some money with it and be at such an awesome kindergarten that is brandnew - lots of learning and developing possibilities for me and of course the kids \o/

man, i'm so happy, i could sing karaoke all day long now - now i just need to finish my 20 pages homework till friday, of which i already have 4 pages laid out - but believe me, that phone call i made is more than enough motivation to finish something lik 10 more pages today !

i'm soooo glad and relieved - it's absolutely indescribable ! *takingadeepbreath*

You sound very happy Acumen, congrats

thanks

yes, i really AM happy right now. you know, there was much pressure on me, cause there are not that many kindergarten in my region that take interns for their last year of education (induction year ?) and so i only had that one chance and they said, they'd call me back within the next 2 weeks - but it was week 3 today, so i decided to call them and im really happy it worked out cause it's an awesome kindergarten - 160 kids but only about 20 in one group - so that's a huge chance to work independently with 1 more educator in the same group - you make your own rules, festivities, education plan and whatnot...

and i already had one positive answer from a kindergarten, but it was in the inner city, and i've in city kindergarten for 2 years now and wanted to experience something else.

so long story short - it all worked out in the end and a huge pressure went away today

oh well, i'm boring you all, but since this is kinda the only forums i visit and post in, i just had to write it down

on the other hand, i couldn't be in kindergarten today, cause i have diarrhea - countless toilette minutes so far - sucks bad time, i can tell you

Fuck me. Just got back from my job interview in Liverpool. Mega drive of 4 hours + there and 4 hours + back for less than an hour long interview. Jeez.

4 Hours isnt a mega drive

both ways it is yo

How did it go?

Yeah it went well. Still debating with myself if it's the right place for me, though.

Too many scousers

Where abouts in Wales are you? When I did the Three Peaks challenge we drove from Snowdon to Liverpool in about two hours? Presumably further south or you went in a Sinclair C5.

I've become so densensitised to time when driving its ridiculous, the 4.5hr journey from home feels like a short trip after doing the Three Peaks challenge where I ended up driving 1500 odd miles in 36 hours.

I'm down by Cardigan, about 10 minutes north. Beautiful drive, though. Mountains and trees/forests rock.

Quote from hessi

reminds me of my trip to Coburg when crytek was still there. 6 hours by train from cologne to coburg. waiting like 30-60 minutes for some folks to interview me. talk with people for like 45 minutes. take the train back to cologne (another 6 hours!)BEAT THAT!

btw: check out my new avatar

Been there, done that, except I started a little more north (Bielefeld..). I still find myself telling stories about how I missed the connection train in Würzburg and had to use a slow-ass regional train through the woods. The train kept stopping at "stations" that looked like bus stops (the conductor had to leave the train, to open up a little gate so the passengers could walk across the rails and board the train, i mean wtf?) and I couldn't understand anyone's German.

: "Woar's de Schoaffna scho doa?"

:"Hm? Sprechen Sie mit mir?"

: "Woar's de Schoaffna scho doa??!??!?!?!?!"

"Waaas??"

Good that (almost) everyone at Crytek spoke English