Posts by Soldat Du Christ

@Roald I overlooked the sound aspect so im sure you have a point there, but I definitely took predictability seriously when designing that map, that's a universal value when designing any competitive multiplayer space, not just cs.

I think the real problem is that you don't know where to expect players (yet) and because of that lack of knowledge you assume they could be anywhere. Also, players have complete control over which lines of sight they expose themselves to, you should be able to isolate encounters and move through the map checking one spot after another like you would any other map.

If you could give specific examples i would happy to explain where you misunderstood, or where you may be right.

I know i'm late, but i wanted to say i love your map, came across it today and downloaded it on a whim, really cool design decisions going on here, i love the path you can take from mid overlooking A site, and T spawn

Quote from xzi

20 minutes ago, xzi said: working on a jump map for Diabotical, editor took some time to get used to but it's rather intuitive, can't wait until it's all fully finished! here's my spawn / first jump

nice dude, that's all their assets?

But is it snapped to the grid tho?

Aaand more updates

Quote from harazataz

On 8/30/2020 at 7:48 PM, harazataz said: Finalised v1 layout of my first CS:GO map using Hammer de_backlot, set in a Hollywood Studios style tourist attraction. My goal for this map is to have three different environments - Old timey' Mexico on B, York, England in Mid, and a Sitcom interior studio on A, that each highlight and encourage different engagement types. It's been a long, but fun road using and learning the tools as I go. I'm very excited to actually play-test this with some friends and get some feedback on how it actually plays out.

What tool do you use to make the top down image? Nice and clean

and updates:

Put in lots of work today, getting close!

I took a break from my csgo map because inspiration hit me and i just couldn't help myself, i had to make this beauty in halo forge, it's called Fantasia and is inspires by Ori and the will of the wisps, and a stage in ssbm fountain of dreams

I feel like after hours of trying to get it right, im stopped dead in my tracks just trying to build the non-grid segments of my map... The parts of the map that fit neatly onto a grid i got done no problem, but i'm having a hard time getting the proportions correct and to line things up nicely. Is there any way to snap objects together with their corners? And not the grid? Like vertex snap or something?

@Kokopelli yeah... i've heard alot about that over time, i never really considered it when making the blockout and at this point not willing compromise on the layout, it is what it is ?

first day progress, focusing on the east grid side of the map before implementing the more organic lanes

Quote from blackdog

40 minutes ago, blackdog said: What do you mean with the highlighted bit?

Because over time there has been much more relaxation regarding the balance, a map to be good and entertaining doesn't need to be as close to a clean 50-50 split. I argued this months ago, posting stats of the maps most played in the tournaments and their ratios.

If you add a position in your map that is designed to give players a unique option, but fail to make earning that position worth while, then the position and all the depth it has to offer might as well not exist because it is too risky vs the reward you can get out of it. Balancing the travel time to certain positions, lines of sight that you can use while your there, how vulnerable the position is from other areas around the map, etc, all factor into whether or mot a position is viable. The more positions you have that are balenced, the more depth that is added to your map, from the micro to the macro.

On your note about "entertainment" wether or players enjoy a map or not can be based on their fleeting emotions, which could continue to fluctuate as they begin to understand a map more. Some people like to fight against all odds because it feeds into their ego, they find that fun. Some just want to accurately test their mechanical skills on simple maps where map depth takes a back seat. Some people thirst for more than the base mechanics and the traditional depth maps have had to offer and want more elaborate playspaces. While peoples idea of fun will change from person to person, what makes a map balanced and have depth are objectively measurable qualities.

In the case of CSGO where teams switch between offense and defense like @Vilham said, you don't even have to have both sides perfectly balanced because as long as long as both teams have a chance it is fair game. But having individual positions be worthless is a sad missed opportunity caused by poor balence

Quote from DMU222

2 hours ago, DMU222 said: Balance isn't the most important thing when making a map. A map is defined by its encounter design and the way areas build up those encounters, see my previous post for a fairly thorough explanation of what I mean.

This is why some maps may appear repetitive, mappers are making new and original encounters but sticking to the roots with 'set up' areas. Can you really blame them? Making a set up area too complicated overwhelms players and disrupts flow. Very good maps design their encounter areas as potential set up areas, simplifying the design and adding depth to the gameplay.

Dust 2, a classic de_ map can be broken down into three categories of areas: Examples of encounter areas that can potentially serve as setup are: B tunnels, Mid, CT spawn, catwalk, and farside A long. Examples of pure setup areas are: T spawn, outside B tunnels, and the area outside long doors and top mid. Examples of pure encounter areas(also setup areas when on the defending side): Bombsite A and B

When it comes to competitive play, maps are only as deep as they are balanced, which makes both equally important. In my case i want to build a very unique map which welcomes complexity and has a learning curve, which implies it is harder to balance, much more so than a simple map.

Quote from fewseb

On 7/18/2020 at 3:13 PM, fewseb said: You know the grand majority of competitive pool maps were maps were made by hobbyists in the 90s right? Nobody back then knew what constituted a good map, they just made things they found fun with the very limited level editor they had for goldsrc. Nobody but the community chose what maps would still be popular today. Dave Johnson didnt sit down and think about 25 layers of level design theory when he made dust2, he just threw shit at a wall and found things he liked. He didnt set out to make the definitive CS map layout, he stumbled upon it.

Now 20 years later you cant really change the basic foundation of a map very much before it becomes something new entirely. Even though it is easier now to make maps at non 90 degree angles, they cant just go back and adjust old maps to be less square. Nobody here chose what maps would be in the tournment pool, no one here likes how stagnant csgo maps have become. We have to cater to a community who doesnt like new things, You can ask anyone here and they probably at some point had some new, revolutionary design that played well and would be a total refresher to the map pool if added, what happens? Players see a map they dont understand from the first 5 seconds in game, then quit and downvote on the workshop.

About the only game changing map to ever make it into the game was Insertion. Want to know what happened when players who didnt like new things played insertion? They left negative reviews for csgo and then went to the map creators profile and left him angry messages. You can look at Insertions workshop page and see in the months when it was in game people leaving essay long rants about why it sucks and massive dislike spam.

Its not our fault that the only new maps the csgo community want are old ones theyve already played. Mappers have tried their best to make less blocky and more out-there layout ideas, but the more you deviate from the dust2/mirage layout, the less an average player will like the map. And when theres a total 8 slots max a year for new maps to get in and half the time those slots will be filled with old maps from previous operations, you can see why mappers have just stuck to the standard layout because its their best chances of getting in the game.

To some it up, no one here wants to keep remaking dust2, they just have to in order to get players to play their map.

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Bravo! I completely agree, that is the tragedy of any competitive game with a map maker editor, you could pretty much say the same thing about halo, the players just want lockout/ gaurdian/ midship remix's all day. I'm prepared for the csgo audience to not like my map, or at most they find it interesting and play it casually even though I designed it with the upmost care for competitive play.

I'm sure that there have been some ambitious directions taken with level designs for CSGO and it wasn't right of me to make fun of the repetitive maps we see coming and going, because like you said, they are just giving the players what they want.

I think if the map contests here where tested more thoroughly, where the judges and players are forced to give more ambitious maps a chance to figure out, there would be a higher chance that a map such as mine (for example) could place highly in the contest and maybe we would see more of a shift in new directions. This was my goal when i first started the map way back at the beginning of the contest, to make a unique map and make it balanced enough to be taken seriously and hopefully get everyone to follow through after me.

At this point i pursue primarily for my own closure and to expand my experience, but i also hope the map could serve as the ultimate example of a unique and complex map done right for future generations. That depends on how balanced I can make it. I guess we will have to see! *shrug*

Quote from Kokopelli

On 7/18/2020 at 6:17 PM, Kokopelli said: [Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/quBC4JB.jpg]

Let's say you have five CTs in the positions above.

[Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/c4pTYaQ.jpg]

As I'm approaching from the tunnel I'm hugging the right wall so I can engage a player playing the back of the site without being exposed to any other angles.

[Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/NtfAjIV.jpg]

When I get here, I can get a narrow peak at a player playing behind the stack on site.

[Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/Elutijd.jpg]

As I continue forward, I begin hugging the left side of the tunnel as I sweep right to clear each angle on site one by one.

[Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/mPDgNOQ.jpg]

Before stepping outside the tunnel, I look up to check for a CT playing on top of this stack.

[Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/OUUyRPi.jpg]

While I'm checking that stack I'm still inside the tunnel and not exposed to the CT playing the corner on the left.

[Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/Gq7PyLn.jpg]

Then I check that corner.

[Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/gNm65QL.jpg]

Next, I press up against the stack so I can again check for a player playing the stack on the bombsite.

[Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/b8tkANg.jpg]

After that I check car.

[Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/jUpjrzu.jpg]

Then deep in the cubby.

[Blocked Image: https://i.imgur.com/5M6rWkG.jpg]

And finally directly behind the

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You can't deduct wether or not players are in those further back positions unless they choose to reveal themselves and challenge you. Even if you progress in the most optimal way possible as you have suggested, you have no idea if there are enemies hiding behind those pieces of cover, they will peak out at their own discretion, not conveniently when you choose to look at them