Posts by Mitch Mitchell

As much as I like your post, I must disagree with your overriding point which leads into your framework: Level design is not art, and so is removed from the creative process.

Line by line on your analogies-

Painting a painting is creative expression and by comparison, a drywall painter does not draw building blueprints, they paint walls, not create paintings.

A musician and any creative professional does and do care very passionately whether people experience something they create, as again, it is about expressing oneself regarding ideas or emotions instead of just saying or doing something. IF someone just wants to play an instrument, that is then a hobby for which they choose to enjoy alone for interest or learning a skill, typically because they are passionate about it. The issue with that analogy is that when your obsession becomes your profession, it is no longer your obsession.

The pianist, will certainly require mentoring and tutelage whilst they learn how to play, but writing and composing a new piece of music? Yeah, that requires feedback and again, is creative expression - yet there are only 12 notes on the chromatic scale...

Level design is part of interactive entertainment, and not having feedback and just chucking a map on the pile of maps which already exist in the hope that one day one of the maps may or may not be played is a highly questionable process for blocking out a level. I simply refuse the believe someone will hire someone to create maps for them, and never have the map tested, give it to an environment artist to not go over the lines. I really do not think it works like that. Figuratively speaking.

Surely, it is no different than UI?

OT, Level Design is not art, it is design and it must follow the rules of the game for which it is designed for, not the other way around - and the only way to get better at it is feedback. It doesn't matter how pretty I make something, if it doesn't follow the principles of the game for which it is designed for.

I also am a creative writer btw, and have finished everything I began writing - that, I do for pleasure.

Quote from dux

On 23/07/2016 at 3:01 PM, dux said: When you run out of ideas, take it into space.

Or add Robots, Zombies and NINJAS.

That's ******' it, I'm Copyrighting:

"ROBOT ZOMBIE NINJAS IN SPACE!"

DEATH-STREAKS!

KILL-STREAKS!

REANIMATE-STREAKS!

Choose whether to be a ZOMBIE, ROBOT or NINJA!

Rock, Paper, Scissors becomes ROBOTS, KUNG-FU and FLESH-EATER!

You think I'm kidding? I just added zero gravity and ALIENS as DLC, with a mech shop to mix ALIEN ARTEFACTS and ROBOTS with ZOMBIE DNA for XTRA XP.

Crowd-sourcing records are about to be broken, smashed in two and EATEN!

Quote from Sprony

4 hours ago, Sprony said: I'm not a designer, but it's not very different with writing really. I've spend an insane amount of time on doing an in depth interview that nobody cared about but a short news post about a popular game I did was trending for days. That hurts, so I understand where you are coming from. But at the end of the day, it's not about the number of likes or how many people you reach, but that you made something you are proud of. Sure, validation is always nice, but it should never be the goal.

@FrieChamp said it best. You are looking for something that doesn't exist. I've done enough interviews to know that there isn't a single studio out there with a perfect pipeline. Game design is about doing the best with what you have and iterate on that. From what I'm told, it's a pain to make content for Destiny. Id-tech 6 requires a render farm thus slowing down some of the processes. The engine of Unreal Tournament keeps getting updated and breaking things. The list goes on. You have great games out there that failed to reach an audience and you have games that get such toxic feedback you are ashamed to be a part of the human race.

Find something you like. Something you believe in and make it. Forget demographics, audiences, current technology, feedback and what not. I know people who do amazing things with Quake and that's 20 years old. Stuff they enjoy doing more than their work in the industry. Let it all go and forget these endless discussions. Because after all is said and done, more is said than done

Plus, if I was a computer, I would be more impressed with people who made awesome stuff with crappy tools than the other way around.

The creative process and having self-respect is incredibly important, however; if you make something which no one uses (for a variety of reasons) then what is the point.

Maps need to be played and experienced, and if no one is playing a map - why? The obvious thing to look at is the design, but if no one gives you any feedback as to what can be tweaked (especially at the blocking stage) then you can spend an inordinate amount of time creating something which is ultimately pointless.

Feedback is key. A level designer does not and should not be the lynchpin for design, the community and the peers of the designer/mapper, are.

I would happily spend a working week being verbally beaten up about a design by my peers, if the net result is a better map.

Ego be damned!

I get your point about writing though, as I wrote a 20 page design document for the recent competition you held, and have yet to hear anything back about it As we speak I am penning a design outline for 4 maps, and am doing some lighting builds in the BG - no idea where it will go, but am not taking my foot off the gas and never will. I strive to be better!

Quote from FrieChamp

13 hours ago, FrieChamp said: Abridged

It's very simple, to get better requires feedback.

Communities are unwilling to feedback if a design is not like a map already on rotation. You either get minimal feedback from a few people who are generally awesome people who understand the reciprocal nature of map design (small community), or you get lopsided feedback as a map is not like an existing paradigm and the design gets lost in a sea of maps (large community).

Example, if you increased the movement speed of CS:GO characters, you would have to alter the designs; hence it is extremely difficult to become better at something which already has the 'perfect' design worked out. Time to reach A or B if T or CT, time to reach choke point, number of entrances and exits etc. That is just a few ground-in factors when designing. If it takes too long to travel to A if CT, but not T = map fail. Too short = flank and fail.

You are probably right, perhaps I am looking for a unicorn and perhaps I have answered my own question: there is no 'best game to map for'.

I'm not procrastinating btw, I am typing with UE4 running lighting builds/bakes in the background, and we all know how long it can take to calculate If I can be guilty of anything, it's being verbose and tangential, but that's just me and the type of personality I have: talk, talk, talk - gregarious as a Dolphin!

Back to work...

Quote from Taylor

On 29/08/2016 at 11:05 AM, Taylor said: I guess I don't really understand the end goal. If you're looking to do some hobbyist level design it should be a personal question, really. You're doing this for your own entertainment so your personal investment in a game should trump any kind of measure of popularity. If you want to make Doom WADs or CS:GO knife maps go and do that.

If you're looking for a path into The Biz then most of the important skills you learn making levels are transferable. The interface will change, everything has its own quirks, the scripting language will be different, etc. But you can pick this up fast once you've got the foundation down. Going lower level will only help.

I understand your point, and it may surprise you to read that I also respect it. So, here is an expansion on your question.

I want to map and am finding it extremely difficult to map for games which:

1. Already have an established series of rotation maps, so are saturated by design.
2. Have convoluted BSP/GEO/CSG pipelines.

My reasons:

1. Games that have an established series of rotation maps do not yield feedback, as they are saturated by design based on the game mechanics. On one extreme we have CS:GO and de_dust2, the other we have UT4alpha...and a slim playerbase with nuance requirements.
2. Ridiculously bad tools extend the amount of time it takes to map, and therefore get feedback.

I want to get better at mapping, and cannot do that with the two above points being as they are.

I am looking for a new game to map for. One which has good tools, and does not have a community which have naunced requirements, making all maps that do not fit into a narrow paradigm fail and fall into obscurity.

I am talking with a company right now, using the UE4 engine, so perhaps this question is moot.

A few things I do:

1) Take 5-10 minute breaks every two hours, and 1 hour every 4 - this normally involves going outside and walking; rain or shine, coats or shades. Gets your blood pumping and gives your new ideas to toss around when you return. Living next to a forest helps, fresh air can clear any mental block.

2) Follow standard rules and guidelines for sitting at a terminal and working, like:

1. Sit up (pin) straight
2. Don't slouch when you are not typing or operating the mouse.
3. have the top of the monitor be exactly the top of your head.
4. Sit central to the K+M (when mapping) and if typing for extended periods of time (1/2 page of A4/Letter or greater) move the keyboard into the centre of the desk, aligned with the centre of the monitor, as opposed to 10 o'clock (keyboard), 2 o'clock (mouse), have a 12 o'clock (keyboard) and 2 o'clock (mouse)
5. Use a mechanical keyboard. Your fingers will bounce gracefully when typing, with each keystroke, as the springs have a more natural bounce to them than capacitive. This is coming from someone who learnt to type on a mechanical typewriter!
6. Use a Palm-grip mouse when working. Again, makes a huge difference - because your wrist will rest gently on the mouse, instead of tightly gripping it. There a lot of designs out there, but the one I fell in love with is so good, I bought an additional one when my current mouse breaks! Palm grip is better for your wrists. So much better.
7. Try and look away from the monitor as much as possible. It's so easy not to do this, and continue staring at the screen absorbing photonic energy which your brain has to decode and feed info to your senses...waste of time. Stare into the nothingness void of the corner of the room instead, focus your mind and move on.
8. Every few minutes ask yourself whether you are doing any of the above. Chair - check, monitor - check, K+M - check and lastly:
9. Gets your eyes tested every two years, and Do. Not. Sit. Too. Close. To. The. Screen.

3) Blink.

4) Stretch head to toe before every session.

5) Use eye drops before every session, so it becomes automatic: You sit down, you put drops in your eyes, your adjust your position, take a deep breath and start.

6) After a long day in front of the monitor - avoid television, and do something 'organic' or analogue, like reading a real book and drinking some herb tea with no caffeine.

You get one set of eyes, look after them.

Quote from Buddy

14 hours ago, Buddy said: Tim is selling the product, do not over-analyse He is also clearly jet lagged.

Hence my last comment. It does appear to be difficult circumstances, and noisy; in a language he does not speak.

Tough to do PR under those circumstances, but I do not think that Modding or mods for this game are going to be what we understand mods to be. Snapmap is an example of this. Not knocking the fact it exists, but a full on SDK it is not...but I understand it is a transient system, so who knows what Snapmap will or shall become in the future.

For Quake, I think the question is "Will we be able to create our own maps and administer our own servers?" if we got those two, then great - but the immediate follow-on from that is "Can WE port maps from prior versions, and can we create fresh and new mods for ourselves, our friends and the community én massé?"

The answer, AFAICT, is "no, no and no" with a side-step of "...not at launch..." but time is an interchangeable thing and allows you to be non-committal, doesn't it? It's PR/Marketing 1-oh-1. He could've easily said "...not by lunch-time..." and due to the interchangeability of it, would have been just as accurate and non-committal.

Sprony said he has got maps 'ready' from prior version which he shelved - I think there are and must be others, and Quake Champions has the opportunity (Like Unreal Tournament had) to allow conversions from prior versions of Quake - but I doubt that will happen, based on those two comments alone.

Again, it could be due to difficult circumstances...time will tell.

Quote from blackdog

2 hours ago, blackdog said: Interesting psychology analysis, now that you mention that, I always found that he spoke wide eyed lol

Some people do. When you look directly at someone for a short period and do this, without raising the eyebrows, that's fine. Long stares with the eyes wide and raised eyebrows when addressing someone happens for a few reasons, but mostly it's not believing what you are saying and forcing the look. Some people say this is because if they do not, they may do some of the classic 'tells' they are not saying something they believe in, like looking away, looking up, flicking the eyes around whilst accessing different parts of the brain to coat the words into convincing packets of data to send to the lips.

This is why it's hard to look someone in the face, directly and lie - because to do so requires immense effort to stop the (almost) automatic natural instinct to shift around in your seat, look about the room and generally avoid eye contact. Look at it this way, the face has got like 40 muscles in it, plus you got the eyes, the whole body moving and your brain accessing the hard drives and all of your other senses operating. You got to hit the 'turbo' button on the DX overlock to stop your natural instincts giving you up.

Telling the truth is easy, lying is incredibly hard.

Quote from BJA

14 hours ago, BJA said: Interview at Gamescom, Mod support after release was mentioned, woot!

Well, he seemed disingenuous, non-committal and shifted in his seat when that question was asked. I believe his answer was "...we will look at how we will integrate that after launch..." and "...Okay, at launch we will, err, not support mods..."

Hate to draw upon other aspects of my life here, but when someone answers a question wide-eyed, looks directly at the person and has their eyebrows raised, it is because they really want to other person to believe what it is they are saying. In other words they are forcing the expression.

His other comments about using a combination of ID Tech 6 and third party software/tech is probably what is causing them issues and they (guessing) have licensing issues regarding giving the community tech which (guessing) would require decoupling and recoupling to work.

Chefs do not like people in their kitchens.

If I were in a non-sombre mood, I would say the reasons for his demeanour are because he simply doesn't know the answer fully but is trying his best to do the whole PR bit under (what seems) very difficult and noisy circumstances.

Quote from 2d-chris

3 hours ago, 2d-chris said: because it's about games not tools, and personally I don't like crydesigner, when I was there I actually used the old tools because I thought they did simple geometry more efficiently - could of been improved now, but I really don't want all the complex geometry options for a whitebox, ideally you'd stick to a 1m grid, and if you're bevelling things you've kinda missed the mark for a level designer (for a whitebox) I understand it could be useful for students without a modelling app, but there are enough free ones these days I can't really see a use for it

I never said I was, but we all make mistakes do we not?

Glad we agree it is all about games, though.

Quote from Pampers

1 hour ago, Pampers said: Spend less time writing novels theorizing and thinking about what to do (that's @blackdog job :):):):):):):) ) and just pick one and get cracking!

Totally - I can be quite rambolic and tangential...sorry

I have contacted the Sn. Producer of a UE4-based shooter today about level design for their game, which looks about 6-12 months away from being released.

On top of this, as mentioned I am still interested in CS:GO, but will probably keep searching for a better tool to work with (or game, more importantly!) or a UE4-based shooter.

Just spent the last few days tinkering with CS:GO SDK and I believe I have come to the conclusion that CS:GO is not something I want to map for, I just detest Hammer.

My reasons for this are mainly to do with the clunky interface, lack of a decent BSP tool and lack of PIE functions.

Just to frame this for you, I have spent the last 18 months using UE4 and with a five year break, UDK prior to that for roughly a year. So, I am too accustomed to additive/subtractive environments, and not pure additive designs. The amount of times I was thinking 'So let me get this straight, if I want to move that window/door at the blocking stage, I have to redesign the entire wall??? - Why can't I just punch a window/door shape into the wall???'

I've read comments from people over the years talking about how awesome they find it, but kept being reminded about the times I tried to map from about 2005 onwards with Hammer and being continually frustrated with it. The lack of workarounds is also a barrier for me, where there does not (on the surface) appear to be any form of geometric 'toying' which one can do. This is hard to explain, but I guess I have become accustomed to having 50 ways of achieving the same results at a blocking stage With CS:GO SDK it seems there is one way, and that's it - do it that way or it won't compile.

Gonna give it another try over the weekend and also CE5 experimentation for brush/map work, too - but unless I find a pull down which lets me customise stuff to work the way I want it too, I think it will get buried until Source2.

Kinda wish UE4 had more games people were playing for it, where I could go to map...anyone?

Quote from Thrik

2 hours ago, Thrik said: I always find it the most fun to do anything creative if it's in the context of something that I'm passionate about. So while you could probably map for any old game and enjoy it, if you map for a game you enjoy playing — You play games, right? — then you're much more likely to feel invested in it and can even have a great time playing it alongside the people you're making it for. That's the beauty of doing hobby projects, because you don't have to just develop what you're told to.

More than happy to offer beer to that, 'sir - that is the kind of comment the internet sorely lacks!

I do play games, but have spent a long time playing games part-time and definitely fall into the 'hobbiest' category for level design.

Side topic (maybe not) why is the CryEngine5 is not being used so much for whiteboxing, or full-on level design - the 'designer tool' (playing with it as we speak) seems a decade forward than other tools on other engines....?

Quote from tomm

16 hours ago, tomm said: you can pick an existing theme and do it better, or worse, it's all about the execution anyway.

and when it comes to csgo I don't see how it feels constrained in any way, plenty of people here on the forums are pushing the boundaries of what's possible in csgo with their creativity. Just have a look at some of the recently released maps.

and why do you care so much about what people say about the map? just try to enjoy the process, you can't please everyone.

I completely agree with your final point, but to answer your question; because I want to improve, get better and have a long term iterative process with detailed feedback to further design. I am not the one to decide whether a map is good or not, the community and my peers are. That's kind of a platitude, I'll admit, but it happens to be something I believe in.

CS:GO is an extremely nuanced game, which has been honed over a very long period of time. Dust_2 is how old? There are players on the circuit now who are younger than that design. In part, as morbid as it seems, this to me (and I will humbly be corrected in the face of my peers) means the 'optimal' map in terms of design has been done, and all maps are measured against it. So, it's a figurative statement I make when I say that level/map design for CS:GO is 'dead'. That is not to say that one cannot create an amazing map and it is certainly not to say the game itself is 'dead' as CS:GO is awesome fun, it's more about creating something without having the large, planet-sized shadow of other maps.

Perhaps I am projecting, but if I had the choice over a new map for ten minutes, or play Dust_2 for one hour, I would pick Dust_2.

Still thinking about this, more thoughts from the community help.

Quote from Vaya

1 hour ago, Vaya said: Tetris

Funny...

Odd thing is this: IF I were to take Tetris as a theme for something like TF2, I can garuntee you such a map already exists and any effort by me would be nullified in a matter of days. And that is part of the problem, is it not? You take a theme, and for something like Counter Strike - it has already been done. That's one of the problems when mapping for a well-trodden game mechanic, no matter what you map, people will say that it is 'like XYZ map' because maps are always designed around game mechanics, player speed and weapon design. You can therefore end up with cookie cutter designs at a white-box paradigm of acceptability for the game. Yes, one can add amazing art etc, but none of that matters if no one plays it because it does not make best use of the game: Hence, which is the best game to create maps for?

If I were to say 'TF2 map, CTF, Tetris' you can all see it, can't you?

Back on point, I'll take a look at Natural Selection 2 - how is the editor?

Quote from Pampers

29 minutes ago, Pampers said: What is your goal? learn a new editor, have something that people will play? portfolio piece? level design or art focus?

Which game, basically. But yes, all the things you mention, but primarily that people will play which is 'current gen'.

Focus on mapping.

Serious question, multifaceted answer, if you'll excuse the geometric pun. At a quandary, basically.

I like the UT4 Alpha, but find it hard to justify expenditure of time on a game which so few people play and therefore is difficult to get feedback for.

CS:GO/SDK is interesting, has lots of players, but lacks scope environmentally and feels constrained.

TF2/SDK is kinda the same, but with lots more flair - but is ageing now, and like CS:GO, feels constrained and restrictive, or perhaps a little too well-trodden?

So, looking for something which allows me to map. Something which no one is making maps for now, but has a big and active community for, yet is not so old that the game mechanics have worn holes in the carpets for routes which everyone takes, as part of the game mechanics. I'm also looking for something which is not going to be replaced (tech-wise) soon.

Ideas? Opinions? Thoughts? Beliefs?

Quote from Klems

6 hours ago, Klems said: This looks like any arena shooter that came out in the last 2/3 years. But then again any arena shooter that came out in the last 2/3 years looks like Quake.

Anyway, all Quake ever needed was a matchmaking system so hopefully it should be ok. The weapons sounds are particularly bad though.

EDIT: also the fact that some people think 120 FPS for a competitive game is bad is completely beyond my comprehension. The more FPS you get the better, period.

That's an interesting topic though, isn't it?

Choice one: Create an Arena FPS game with úber levels of awesome graphics, that E-Sports peeps will turn down to its barest minimum when playing competitively to get maximum advantage and minimum draw calls.

Choice two: Create a reasonably pretty Area FPS, but that is using pedestrian draw calls and intelligent light-maps/shadow maps/texture compression/LOD scaling etc, in turn allowing higher-than-normal frame rates.

They went with choice two, although choice one with an * of a "competition" graphics mode, where all the SFX/Post-processing is turned-off and the Geometry looks like Hammer in standard would be ideal, where floors, walls, ceilings each have their own standard colour scheme, with added trim colouring would be more than sufficient, and possibly ideal? That would have been my choice.

That, is a cake and eat scenario, with all the bling.

Holy S....

That's looking good. Really good.

Quote from Sprony

2 hours ago, Sprony said: If it comes with an editor I'll drop everything and focus full time on making maps.

I work from home...might take a few months off and do the same.

Winter is not that far off...