Posts by Dosentti

Quote from Vorontsov

What I can tell you from just looking at the overview is that it's oversaturated in paths to take, a lot of maps suffer from this. There is nothing wrong with having one "essential" chokepoint to have to push your way through like Banana on Inferno

So basically you mean that earlier version was better?

I actually thought the same thing myself but I think majority of gamers like to have more options. That route that I added near A-long doesn't change choke points much because CT has the same angle to hold as in earlier version. Terrorist just have better more options after gaining control of the main chokepoint. They can go through "kiln"(which leads to balcony dropdown) or they can go straight to the A plant or they can have "the best cover" through building outmost of A spot.

Anyways.. After tomorrow we will see if it works as I think or is it too much like you say It's just that I was told I should add more routes to A bombsite.

Quote from Quotingmc

The lighting is an odd colour. It is creeping towards sickly yellow/green which curses newer mappers. I would try altering it a little. Map itself looks really nice though. Can't wait to playtest!

Now that you said it.. I fixed it to be a big less saturated. It got more realistic, thanks Playtest will be with that odd color though..

could you by any chance add de_nuke_will2k map to the post?

My current map has a lot of open areas like in nuke and I'm not sure how to optimize it. It would be helpful to see how it's done as well as you do!

Farm will be in mapcore playtest at Sunday. Here are new screenshots from the map:

Quote

Feedback from the playtest:

- Both bombsites have too many angles to check.

- Some spots were too complex (I guess it was mainly CT side of middle)

- Mid to B route was weird because it lead to heaven instead of bombsite.

- Bombsite A had too few possible routes.

- connector from T-side of middle to A long didn't "have a point" or didn't "make sense" or "was irrelevant somehow".

- The map had too many buildings for a farm (didn't feel like a farm)

- There were some irrelevant hiding spots that confused players.

- A house was "cramped"

- CT to A route through a living house wasn't good and it was suggested that I alter it a bit.

I tried to focus to all feedback even though some said that the layout was good. This is because the vote result in the end looked like this:

Neutral, selected 7/13 times (53.84%)
Like, selected 3/13 times (23.07%)
Dislike, selected 4/13 times (30.76%)

So basically either it was "kind or bad-ish" or people didn't know what to think about it..

So here's the new layout:

Quote

What I did:

- Put a big box in the middle of B bombsite and changed angles so that it's easier to access but on the other hand easier to defend.

- A statue and a pond on A bombsite were replaced with crates.

- CT side of middle was simplified. A window and vent have now separate routes.

- Mid to B-heaven route and CT to B site route were switched. So now it's mid to B and CT to B heaven.

- Tried to delete some irrelevant weird corners and make routes a bit more straightforward.

- route from CT to A was moved a little towards middle and the route isn't inside of building anymore. The living house will be places later outside of CT spawn.

- A house was made a lot bigger. Also both entrances of A house were made bigger.

- Created whole new route through the kiln to A bombsite. It's accessible only by taking a small risk. Also.. Kiln isn't possible to access from the A bombsite (kind of a drop).

- T spawn to A long route was changed. It doesn't go through a building anymore but there's a kind of "pit" where terrorists can awp.

- Also the nearest building from CT to B (the rightmost route) was deleted.

- In the middle I deleted the silo placeholder blocks and changed the spare space in there to a sheep yard.

- Added a self-made custom 2D skybox.

- Detailed one building T side of B long to be an old shed.

I made a temporary publication to workshop because it's easier to share it that way.

Thanks especially Bevielis, JustFredrik, Vaya and Onebit.

I got the first layout playtest version ready today. I already created few detailed buildings too as a prefabs. The layout is very much alike with previous version so there's no new layout pic, but here are few pictures from the map:

And here's link to the map if someone want's to test it.

I decided to continue with version 6. It's more traditional choice, but anyways..

Quote from NihiL

Yeah, how to make models for Hammer/Source is often requested. And I CAN do it (have done it in the past in de_spice) but it's a very lengthy and difficult process. Plus it requires 3DS MAX which is very expensive and I don't think a lot of people have access to it... Hmmm, not sure. Other opinions? Would it be worth it to make an episode on that anyways? Other ideas?

You should definitely do that! 3Ds max is free at least for students. But if you think it's not worth it then blender is free and pretty popular so I guess you could do that with blender if not with 3Ds max. I think that would be awesome tutorial. Some other subjects could be for example

- advanced optimizing (like for big open maps).
- texture creation (like for example vmt options, explaining all terms like alpha texture, bumpmap etc..)
- skybox creation (from start to finish.. that's major job and I haven't found good tutorial)
- advanced lighting (it could be based on leplubodeslapin's source lighting articles. Articles are great but they are more theoretical and thereby a bit hard to understand how those lights work in practice)
- proper workflow (which steps you should take while creating map... like draw layout, make greybox, test, test, test, tweak and test more..)
- Storytelling in csgo maps (this is probably hard one, but not many maps have good story behind them)

It could be a series about creating map that has been made correctly from start to finish and with (at least some of ) your own custom props and textures. Because mapmakers should be encouraged to use custom content imo.

Also.. one suggestion I have for tutorials that you make in future: It would be great if the example map was a bit bigger. At least I find it hard to figure out the scale and everything when there's only 2 walls or one corridor.

I hope some of these inspire you!

Quote from Logic

You probably shouldn't remove the blue or white area. The map looks a lot cleaner this time around

I think you should focus on one version and let people give you feedback on that one. We can't really tell how things play out in game based on a couple of overviews, so it's better to present one version and have people play that instead. I know this isn't that helpful, but you should try to develop a layout that YOU think will work, and then let others try it out, not the other way around

Too bad I read this now that I have finished 6 different versions

Not really.. I mean I did create 6 versions but it actually just evolved every time further leaving me with 2 a bit different versions of T side of middle. And I like both very much. I know it's hard to judge by picture only but which one of these 2 seems better? Here are the layouts:

Version 5.

.

Version 6.

And Here is the link to files if someone wants to test both versions.

I will create few different versions of this layout and submit all of them in here when they are done. After that people can say which is the best.

Quote from jackophant

Having windows is fine, but a lot of yours don't even have glass in them. Using an opaque glass texture and some wooden boards on one/both sides is a good way to create something that feels realistic and is partially penetrable to offer interesting wallbangs. But please, make sure both teams have at least one route that doesn't require them to jump to get into each bombsite. It might sound picky but it makes things run a lot smoother. Try not to get caught up being too realistic because maps play well when they're well designed

I don't think the layout as a whole should be binned, you just need to adjust it. I would definitely test it with us in greybox if you do remake a lot of it so you can make changes much faster.

The first layout is ready now. Should I block in the ceilings too before you guys testing it or is it enough if there's only sky as a roof for now?

The layout changed as much as I thought it would when I try to make it again. But I also tried to make routes more obvious.

Here it is. Better?

And And here's the .bsp if you could be so kind and check it through

Quote from jackophant

I highly advise you do some reading on multiplayer level design.

I didn't notice the CT ladder up into the A window room until right at the end of the map when I was dead. Not only is it extremely fatal to try and get to having to jump out of a window and cross a T controlled mid, but there's nothing highlighting it's existence as it's almost the same colour as the underlying texture.

CTs have to jump through so many windows and doors and drop downs, it's honestly very unenjoyable. The number of times I died when Ts just appeared on A because they have so much cover only to die trying to get into a doorway or window was unacceptable.

There needs to be balance. If you've got a route that streamlines Ts to a bombsite with barely any chance for CTs to stop them, then the bombsite needs to be hard to enter or attack (think B dust2), but if you give them a more open route (close to your A long) then you can make your bombsite easier to plant in. However, your A route is very hidden to CTs, and if a CT dare peek, they get their head blown off from a lot of angles,including the side of their head from the windows Ts can push.

Less objects to run over would be nice, and try and make the spaces believable. That mid window for CTs is a drop from a super narrow staircase into a room with only a fireplace, window and vent.

Okay. Thank you for this. I'll try to solve these problems in next layout/version. The reason why I have places there so much windows and doors is that I have tried to make it realistic. But I guess those aren't practical enough.

Do you agree with R.I.P in the matter that my new layout still seems too complex?

Quote from R.I.P 3.0

You can try to working on this. Big red cube is a train, brown is a crates

There's definitely some potential in this layout that you drew but the changes are so huge that I can't change it that much.
B bombsite changes I don't like in your layout but I for example the solution on A long looks better than mine. Also I don't like very much this route from CT spawn to A bombsite but middle looks great.

I will remake the layout and post the layout picture again. Thank you for your effort, I appreciate it.

Quote from R.I.P 3.0

So, the layout is too complex. Can you make it simplified?

I can try. Which areas are the most complex? CT side of middle?

This was fourth time that I created this map from all over and I messed it up again so I'm going to create it once more all over.
I'm keeping same idea and most of routes but I want to create it well this time.

Here is the new layout that I drew today. What do you think of it? Does these changes fix problems or create more of them?

Quote

I don't have as much experience as you guys so I hope you'll guide me a little. I value your opinions and tips very much. My projects seem to fail every time so I would like ask if I have learned everything right.
I was thinking that this time I want to create this level thoroughly.

1. draw layout few times and try to improve it every time.
2. block in only floors and test the rough timings
3. block the walls in and place the most crucial gameplay elements to the level
4. First playtest(?)
5. fix the layout and put it in playtest again. And repeat this as long as the layout seems to be good.
6. refine the story and theme
7. start working with textures and details
8. test
9. fix and optimize
10. publish

Is that a proper phasing? Did I miss something?

I have already published a thread for this map once but shortly after that I changed the name of the map so now I wanted to do a proper thread.

I appreciate all feedback. I hope you'll comment everything that's good or bad or funny or crazy or whatever you have to say about it.

The map has changed a lot after last update in thread de_urakka.

- Middle area has been made smaller, routes have been added and removed. Also the ground was raised by 64 units in the middle because there was (pretty much) unnecessary elevation.
- Some players also felt that the player was in "rats map". I tried to fix that by renewing the buildings a little and by making them smaller.
- Some textures have been replaced, terrorist spawn point has been drawn further towards map borders.
- I have also tried to optimize the map as much as I can. It's very hard for this kind of open skybox map with a lot of gabled buildings though.

I have said the map is ready for too many times so I guess it's best not so say it again. Work is in progress at least until the next version after playtest.

Workshop link <---------- you can find the layout and pictures here
Additional pictures on Imgur <---------- Some updated pics

Thank you in advance!

My solution to this problem was to place props in front of the most crucial spots and make some walls a little thicker. But unfortunately freaky_banana, you are wrong, at least when it comes to wooden walls. I'm not sure about other materials. I'll try to publish new version of de_farm tomorrow and submit it in playtest for thursday or sunday to get some feedback. I think it's alot better than earlier versions.

Thanks for replies!

Quote from Blade x64

From what I've found, bullet penetration is based on the surface properties of the texture it penetrates. For props, I believe it's based on the prop_data. When a bullet enters into occupied space, it assumes everything is of the same material type until it reaches the air again.

So even if you sandwich concrete between two panels of wood, it will treat the entire distance as wood. Though if there's a break of at least 1-2 units, it will properly account for the material change. A bullet loses more damage when penetrating consecutive walls compared to a wall of equal width.

You can find all of the surface densities in csgo/scripts/surfaceproperties_cs.txt. Had you been able to define custom ones I would have suggested that, but there's no method of doing so.

In my honest opinion, the space sandwich should be treated as a last-ditch effort as it makes a mess of things. You really should just go about making the walls more thick or placing fitting props to block instead.

Okay. Sounds pretty complicated to fix it with anything else than thicker walls. I guess I'll just try to make the walls thicker and change some textures if possible.

Quote from Vaya

@Dosentti you should show what you're having an issue with.

you want to keep the map as logical as much as possible. They shouldn't have to 'test' what is and isn't bangable.

I know, sorry. I just don't have one specific spot but there are a lot of walls that are 16 units and wooden so they are penetrable.

The map I'm talking about is de_farm and for example all A-house walls, T side warehouse walls, mid to A connector walls etc.. So many places. That's why it was so crucial for the map. But I guess I'll just try to figure out how to create better looking thicker walls.

Note: de_farm version in the workshop is old and there are other bugs too that I'm going to fix with next update.

Okay.. It makes sense it was hard to find a tutorial for this.

How about models? Is it possible to create a thin prop_static surface that would block bulletsbullets?

I know, I know.. I shouldn't make new thread before googling my problem million times and trying to solve it. I tried to find a solution but nothing I have found has worked so far.
So maybe some of you say this is noob problem but for me it's very important to get this straight since my map sucks in this.

The problem is with penetrable walls. I have read from multiple sources that inpenetrable walls can be made like this:

1. Create a brush that's covered with blockbullet texture from all sides.

2. Put it on the both sides of wall that you want to make inpenetrable.

3. Make it func_brush and select it to be always solid.

I have now spent few hours trying to figure out what the heck is wrong with those brushes. They just won't work.
I have tried various thicknesses and I have tried to make only one big brush that covers the whole wall I want to be inpenetrable. But all in vain.

So my question is. Is there some rules that makes hammer or cs:go ignore that texture or function? Like for example that my blockbullet brush cannot go through any object or other brush?

And other options for to fixing this.. You probably remember my map de_farm. It was recently on reddit playtest and I decided to finish it finally. So is there any other option for making a brush inpenetrable or at least hardly penetrable.
Texture properties? Modelling? I really need to fix this and I can't change all those wooden walls to be stone.

I started remaking middle last night. I was thinking that I will keep ct side routes to A and B and both bombsites as they are right now but I'll remake the whole middle area and try to unite ramp-to-A route and UG-to-B route with one middle so that both sides would have Underground-to-plant entrance but you would have to run through open middle area if you would like to switch bombsite.

Here's quick paint demonstration. Red arrows indicate some not so obvious entrances.
[Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/DqfQdxA.jpg]
Do you think this would be better?

Quote from Freaky_Banana

Also by the screenshots I couldn't not have made out it was a water treatment plant.

This will also make the map look more like water purification plant. I will also modify some areas to look more like what it should be.

And since textures sucked I made it full nodraw again and next publish will be dev texture version. It was very frustrating to watch the get replaced :@

Quote from [N]awbie

Some feedback based on the overview.

I think the vent-to-A route is alright as there's only one route to A that is accessible for terrorists without having to fight for it. Rest of the underground is pretty much useless so it could be deleted. You could also widen up the mid as it's very narrow with many tight corners.

What are the timings like?

Timigs were pretty good imo. Ct had time to run to A doors while T had just passed the forklift. like around 11secs. On B bombsite the timings were made to be same as in cache. Like T could run to B main corridor while Ct could already peak to main (around 11 seconds too). I guess overpass was pretty much messed and I didn't actually even try it. But CT could open the door and run smth like 5 steps before T could peek from the window(smth like 9 seconds). And Tspawn to A site from Underground was approximately 14 secs and same to B via underground.

So when it comes to timings I guess it was pretty good. But it was very hard to play with 2 middles.