Posts by syver

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1VreyJwMVM

great background music

Quote from Puddy

But everything gets sort of tangled in this quantumy mess and when the end cinematic is shown it doesn't "click" unfortunately.

I didn't experience this at all. After I had finished the game I was in this semi-amazed/excited state where I incrementally realized more and more about how the game-story fits together (i actually had some difficulty sleeping that night). This is one of the advantages of not making everything clear-cut and easy to digest. The story stayed with me for several days because of this. If, however, most of the reflection on this game was fruitless after completing the game - then I would agree with you.

That's not to say I think your viewpoint is wrong. I've talked to some people who barely got the story at all. I don't think Irrational considered enough (or perhaps care) that some players will go through the game without listening to tapes or paying attention to the voluntary story exposition. It feels like the story was constructed with the "perfect" player in mind.

PS: i'm not saying you didn't get the story. my last paragraph is directed at this kind of storytelling in general.

Quote from Dark

Typical tv, I don't know a show that doesn't stretch things out a little. Cough, GoT, Cough.

homeland

I finished it too last night (5 am). I couldn't sleep afterwards because the ending was so mind-blowing. The ending is going to need a separate thread when more people finish the game.

i just noticed they played Wardruna in the latest vikings episode

this music/band is the closest you can get to giving scandinavian nature and mythology a soundtrack

Is the game unlocked for Australia on steam now? Time for VPN?

Edit: i have non-australian friends playing it right now, so it seems that is very possible.

need for speed

the (original) bioshock ending was spoiled for me...

i'm considering playing through this in one sitting. or at least avoid internet altogether until i've finished the game.

i hope you're all taking advantage of the EA Player Appreciation Sale?

[Blocked Image: http://drh.img.digitalriver.com/DRHM/Storefron…_940x371_NA.jpg][Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/duCwxfX.png]

http://store.origin.com/store/eaemea/e…300/ccRef.en_US

http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/18/val…tm_medium=email

it seems Doom 3 BFG won't be ready at day 1, but TF2 will.

Quote from Steppenwolf

This is turning into circular arguments now, everybody pointing at fallacies. Guess we have to agree to disagree.

Still haven't read anything yet that convinces me of her claims to be true. Your (and Anitas) argumentation makes sense under the premises that patriarchic conspiracy is at work, that actual real people have been harmed by these games, that no factors outside sexism/misogony come into question and so on. The evidence presented is thin to non existent, correlations and causations far fetched. It reminds me of people saying "the bible is true because the bible says so". It really follows the same scheme 'Anita is right about these tropes being sexist because in her video she says they are sexist'. I know that are not your words but you repeat her arguments like gospel.

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I'm not sure how you expect me to argue for her case without discussing the premises for her statements. What I'm doing here is replying to your criticisms of her arguments in the video. I've replied and explained why I don't think that criticism holds up and thus I think her points remain valid. Some of my replies are observations which are perfectly falsifiable (such as paragraph six; in what degree peach is used as a damsel in distress in core games). It's a bit tiring to then be constantly accused of begging the question and/or parroting her.

The parts about thunderf00t+feminism, bayonetta, creationism are unrelated/unconstructive yes. I too wouldn't mind postponing further discussion until her next video. When is the next part due, anyway?

Quote from Steppenwolf

Dismissing someone purely based on things he said in the past is a fallacy too. Personaly i find nothing wrong with his video and his argumentation.

I did not do that. I'm dismissing it based on the criticism written below that paragraph. The reason I mentioned that was to hopefully evoke skepticism to his videos.

Quote from Steppenwolf

I'm sure he made this comparison as a reaction to Anita's view who goes even a step further. She doesn't just compare it with real life but draws wild conclusions about how these fictional stories/characters actualy influence real life (like her assumption that a picture of half naked Bayonetta promotes sexual assault in the subway station where it's displayed). She compares the Damsel with onbejctified women in real life, he compares them with loved ones in real life. If anything both are wrong on this one if what you say is correct.

The Bayonetta example has nothing to do with the damsel in distress trope. It does not invalidate what she said about damsel in distress just because an unrelated example is invalid.

Quote from Steppenwolf

So what is wrong with saving women? And why exactly is the Damsel characterization sexist by default? Something that i'm really struggling with to acknowledge because in my view it doesn't say anything about females in general but just about the individual character that it portrays. It would be different if all female characters in games were damsel's. which is far from truth. To be fair not even Anita says that all Damsels are sexist but then she fails to explain what for example makes Peaches characterization sexist and some other Damsel not.

So for you to agree it takes that virtually every single female character is a damsel in distress? I explained this earlier. It's not that it's sexist in itself. It's because it's done consistently to a degree that makes it a stereotype and offensive. I agree that she should have done a better job explaining the distinction between a sexist damsel and one who's not.

Quote from Steppenwolf

It shows the culture shift at work. Anita goes on and on about these vintage games in her video to say something about the state of culture today. He point's merely out that she didn't research properly for a game that she uses to make her point.

The example is perfectly valid and does demonstrate her point. As I said, just because she "punches" the defeated villain (who is incapacitated falls with his penis on her fist) does not justify it. In the 99% remaining part of the game she is still a trophy without any agency. You can't justify it with just an afterthought.

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Not all women are insulted by the games that use the trope. I would argue most not even care but that's just a hunch.Also he's pointing something out that plays a fundamental role for why the trope is in use, something that Anite doesn't even mention and most likely don't acknowlege because it takes wind out of the sails for her argument that sexist attitudes, patriarchy etc is at the core.

Whether they are insulted (by Peach as a character) or not doesn't have to matter. It's the repercussions (stereotypes -> discrimination) of this that is important and if no one is insulted then that makes her video all the more important. "Also he's pointing something out that plays a fundamental role for why the trope is in use" not sure what you mean here, could you clarify?

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Yes you could replace her with a gold chest. Shows how simple the story is and that people really shouldn't interpret too much into it. Also people play Mario because they like to jump around not because they care about the story either way.

If this was an isolated example then I would agree. However, it is consistently used as a plot device for almost every single core Mario game.

Quote from Steppenwolf

Wait did we even watch the same video? Ther's nothing even remotely in his video that reminds me of creationist crap.

He employs the similar rhetoric (mentioned ad hominem, straw man, appealing to emotion etc.)

This video was about older games and the history of this trope. Part 2 will be about contemporary games:

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Ok, so we’ve established that the Damsel in Distress trope is one of the most widely used gendered cliché in the history of video games and has been core to the popularization and development of gaming as a medium. But what about more modern games? Has anything changed in the past ten years? Well, stay tuned for part 2 where I’ll be looking at more contemporary examples of the Damsel in Distress trope.

i'm sure all of mapcore is looking forward to this thread talking about every single episode she releases. this thread is going to be here forever!!!

Rescuing a woman is definitely not inherently sexist. I agree 100% on that. If it were an isolated case it wouldn't be an issue at all. The problem is that it's used consistently and sometimes by the same authors (e.g. Nintendo).

I'm looking at the transcript and I can't see that she's claiming what you're saying. I did however find this;

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Just to be clear, I am not saying that all games using the damsel in distress as a plot device are automatically sexist or have no value. But it’s undeniable that popular culture is a powerful influence in or lives and the Damsel in Distress trope as a recurring trend does help to normalize extremely toxic, patronizing and paternalistic attitudes about women.

The transcript is here if you want to direct me to what part we're talking about; http://www.feministfrequency.com/2013/03/damsel-in-distress-part-1/

edit: ps, i'm not claiming that mirror's edge is sexist or that it's anything very wrong with that narrative. i just wanted to point out that it wasn't necessarily the best example. i didn't know of the female boss part either.

Quote from Vilham

Shame that isn't remotely true though. It isn't always women being rescued by men, ever played mirrors edge for example. Hence why her entire rant is just bullshit generalisation of an entire industry that employs hundreds of thousands based on a few games.

I didn't mean to say that it's 100%, always, every single time (etc.) the case for all existing video game. Are you arguing that the damsel in distress-trope is balanced when measured up to the games that have men that needs rescuing or with female leads rescuing? http://tropesversuswomen.tumblr.com/

btw; aren't you still rescuing a woman in mirror's edge?

Quote from Steppenwolf

And that's just wrong as the guy in Taylor's video has pointed out in better words then i ever could.

I hadn’t actually seen the video before you referred to it. When I did see it I noticed a pretty familiar voice and tone in it. I like a few of Thunderf00t videos, but he seems to have a personal beef with feminists and isn’t really at his most rational with these issues. There are major flaws in this video. It’s reeking of straw men arguments and invalid comparisons;

• Storytelling is not reality. You can’t compare “rescuing a loved one” in real life to rescuing someone in fiction. In real life everyone has personalities and a backstory – in fiction we choose what backstory and portrayals there are. We choose how to portray the story.
• He tries to excuse the sexism in the damsel in distress-trope by saying that the man loves the woman. The stereotype is not based on “rescuing a loved one”, but based on rescuing (exclusively) women. The women can be a love interest, but the stereotype here is that it’s always women that have to be rescued and not men.
• He also somehow achieves to compare himself to the character’s motivations. We are not the protagonist and it’s not our girlfriend/love interest/whatever. We control the protagonist but we don’t know how he feels about the damsel unless we are told.

(This is where his hatred for feminists really shines through. He uses this comparison to say that Anita is inhuman)

• Because that in one Double Dragon game the woman gets to punch her captors in the balls (after he has been defeated) – then everything is justified? Ridiculous.
• For some reason he thinks that when Anita means “weak/strong” she refers exclusively to physical strength. He then wastes several minutes on referring to data that proves this physical difference.
• It’s perfectly possible to make a game that doesn’t insult women and are successful. By “excusing” the sexism with profit he is actually making Anita’s point stronger.

We could say Peach was a chest of gold and it wouldn’t really make any difference. The only characteristic that Peach has is that she is a woman. We are supposed to care solely because of this fact. She exists only so that she can be saved.

I remember seeing his atheist-videos when I was about 16 and he gave me the impression of a very rational and knowledgeable person taking on religious thinking. Had he sticked to that I would probably have the same opinion of him now. Now he’s mass-producing straw man arguments, ad hominem, appealing to emotion (why the fuck is there a 5 minute clip of Star Trek?) and exhibiting the same degree of lunacy you would see in his former creationist opponents.

regarding stereotypes. this study suggests that even positive ones have harmful impact: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/articl…022103112002211

(i'll get to the other stuff later when I have time)

Quote from Steppenwolf

This. Tho i care more about the harmful part. What's considered sexist i think ther's a big semantic gap between what i would define as such and what a dogmatic feminist defines as sexist.

(sorry for late reply)

I think you've misinterpreted her profession and role in this. She is not a sociologist and she is not concerned with proving why stereotypes are harmful. She’s a media critic and this is the perspective she provides for her videos. Some posts here point out that the solution is to provide more balanced narratives and portrayals – and I agree with that – however, there is also help in making people acknowledge and recognize these stereotypes so consumers are consciously prepared when they are exposed to it. This is what she does and she does it well in my opinion.

I’m not sure what your criteria for proof would be, but it’s almost impossible for me to prove that (e.g.) Peach, as a damsel in distress, directly causes <person> to perform <sexist act>. What I can do is show that;

* Peach is objectified

* The objectification is portrayed as normal/non-issue

* Humans can absorb this subconsciously.

* Stereotypes like these can lead to discrimination.

When I replied to your “malicious intend” post it was to point out that their intentions doesn’t really matter. Art is about expressing ideas and some ideas can be expressed without the author realizing it. As you’ve pointed out yourself, artist are and should be perfectly free to communicate whatever ideas or opinions they have, however it’s also in the consumers freedom to point out when harmful (and inaccurate) stereotypes occur.

Damsel in distress doesn't have to be a problem in itself. It’s when characters exist solely for this purpose that it’s a problem. When they have no agency or influence on the story other than being an object that is to be attained. As Anita mentions, the damsel in distress trope perpetuates a subject-object dichotomy. The subject (Mario) acts and the object (Peach) is acted upon. Peach is reduced to a prize to be won/object to be attained. She is represented as weak and incapable without the help of Mario.

The harmful impact of stereotypes is fairly well researched in social psychology. I honestly don’t see much point in arguing for this unless you are a sociology denialist. I will provide evidence for this if you request it.

I’ll concede a few things;

* I took Peach as an example because she’s the worst offender. Zelda is a better character.

* There is no doubt that this can be interpreted in other ways as well. You could argue that it’s Mario that is being the object of her affections. That her affections are valued enough for Mario to risk his life to attain it. I don’t agree with this interpretation

I'm not supporting everything she says. I don't really have strong leanings either way on this because it's a complicated issue for me. Presenting a side here and having you (or others) criticize it helps me understand it better.

Quote from Rick_D

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I like that video. Someone has posted a few valid points about it;

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comme…om_sarkeesians/