Posts by arhurt

  • "Level with Me", my level design interview series at RPS

    Quote from Campaignjunkie

    I agree with a lot of your reasoning, but then your conclusions are totally unrelated.

    I agree that I may have derailed my conclusions when you look at it like this. But remember that it came down from a line of discussion where you said that "The message of Bioshock is that you should murder people with weapons and magic powers". I just wanted to make very clear that there is room for a game's message to go beyond the gameplay, as such Gameplay =/= message.

    Quote from Campaignjunkie

    Here's September 12th. You can argue whether this is an art game or a bad game or whatever -- but it's a game

    I disagree. September 12th is a toy. A very focused toy with very defined rules, but it is not measuring my success other then the ones I impose myself by interacting with it. Some can say Sim City is a toy, but the game does end if you run out of money. There is a game over, there is a way to lose, it is a game. But then... September 12th is a toy where we'll invariably and involuntarily set ourselves the goal of eliminating the Terrorists and preserving the innocents, so it is a toy that pushes the boundaries so far that it blurs with a game, and is a game so lose in it's presentation that it is a toy. There is no challenge (you always lose) and there is no game over or rules. It is not a toy, nor is it a game.

    Quote from Campaignjunkie

    Music is not a game. An MP3 doesn't care whether I listen to it or not, it is dead data sitting on a hard drive. In contrast, games have processes. Games are alive.

    I never said music is a game. I said that music can be a game, and perhaps it'll push the boundaries so hard that it stops being music!

    Quote from Campaignjunkie

    Or are you arguing that games don't have messages at all?

    Again, I only said Gameplay =/= message to illustrate that a game can have a much more detailed message than "The message of HL2 is that you should kill soldiers and monsters, and use the gravity gun to hit people with toilets." And even if that was the case, that would still be the message. All I'm saying is that, barring Tetris, Tic-Tac-Toe or blockout, a games message can't be entirely taken from it's gameplay alone.

  • The skyrim screenshot thread

    Awesome mask!

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  • The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

    Quote from Taylor

    Has anyone done The Stormcloaks questline? Is there anyway I can avoid attacking

    The sieges are so funny. I applaud their effort to try and create the feeling that you are in this epic battle, but it's mostly 20 guys running around killing each other.

    It's so funny when the leaders are giving their speeches, you look around you and there are only 10 guys standing around for the assault.

    It would have been better for them to make you part of an infiltration group or whatever, you infiltrate the city and open the gates.

    The funniest part was when

    Quote

    the Stormcloacks finally siege of Solitude

    . The "whole" army is gathered in front of the city's closed, enormously solid iron doors, while their leader gives out a speech abut the importance of this attack. Then, he yells "CHAAAARGE" and they all go towards the door and casually unlock it one after the other. Totally moodbreaker. I was expecting us to at least blow up the gates with magic or something but no, they just walk in the city and start murdering everyone. You have to see it to realize how pathetic it was. Here, this is what I meant: http://youtu.be/namvwOC9-PA?t=1m29s

    I know they are limited in what they can pull off... and I applaud their effort, but they failed =/

  • The skyrim screenshot thread

    Jetsetlemming, open the console with ' and type tm (toggle menu) to get UI-free screens. Just use the up arrow and enter to bring back the menus after

    I love the little hidden details that are simply rewards for exploration. Like this dude here, all he had by his side was a skillbook if I remember. Still, awesome.

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    And I also found a toppled cart on the side of a cliff road with books scattered everywhere. Makes me wonder what happened here:

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  • "Level with Me", my level design interview series at RPS

    Quote from Jetsetlemming

    I don't need to be shooting terrorists and watching awesome cut scenes and getting mad points. What I do need is a mental engagement.

    I never said Blockbuster explosions and awesome cut scenes are where the fun is on videogames. I love Sim City because of the extremely polished gameplay. Sim City's gameplay is a mix of the relation between its various systems (land value, public services, taxation, pollution etc...) and the incredibly polished UI. There's no story other then the graphs and charts that show how my economy has grown from 50 years ago, and how my citizens are happier then ever! The Myst series have awesome gameplay as well (for their time and category), clever puzzles and an engaging setting and story. Do I play JRPGs because of the amazingly detailed CGI or because of the leveling and combat systems? The CGI acts as rewards for my mastery of the combat and leveling system, and if the combat and leveling systems are crap, arcane and unbalanced, no amount of CGI and explosions will make it a good game. Same goes for CoD: it breaks the records for exploding setpieces, and yet we have already grown tired of the repetitiveness and shallow gameplay (SP).

    I have never played (and likely won't play) Pathologic, but I'm sure that the gameplay in there is at least some fun.

    It may not be the main appeal of the game for you, and that's ok. But the core question is: is Pathologic a videogame? Does it have gameplay? In order to unravel the mysteries of the plot, do you need to level up, defeat any kind of monster with a set of weapons/abilities? Do you need to solve puzzles? Do these challenges feel rewarding to master? And mind you the reward doesn't need to be bigger weapons: it may as well be simply access to more of the backstory and setting. Maybe Pathologic doesn't have greatly balanced gameplay and the physics are glitchy and quests are buggy, that makes it a bad game. Can you still have enjoyment from a bad game? Surely. Does that make it a good game? No. Do you need to feel bad for liking a bad game? No! But you might as well admit that it is a bad game =P even if it has the most intriguing setting and engaging story.

    Now try to imagine if Pathologic had great gameplay. So great that it feels so natural to play it after learning the basics that you can enjoy everything else the game has to offer and still come out the other end with that happy feeling of accomplishment that mastering a game lets you have.

  • The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

    Quote from csyver

    is there no merchant with more than 800-900 gold? selling stuff is such a hassle in this game...

    You have to go on the speechcraft skilltree to be able to invest gold in merchants.

    Merchants reset at every 48 in-game hours. If you are desperately stuffed and need gold, just wait/sleep and he'll have his gold replenished.

  • "Level with Me", my level design interview series at RPS

    Quote from Campaignjunkie

    Okay, so anything that has "gameplay" is a game? Well according to you, "thinking about the Joker" counts as input / interaction, or even transcends input, so watching a cutscene and thinking about the Joker, that counts as gameplay? I think you need to explain what you mean by "mechanics" because I thought I knew what you meant, but I don't think it fits with what you say above -- that thinking = interacting with the game?

    From my earlier statement: Gameplay must engage the player in an interactive fashion that challenges and rewards mastery of the mechanics according to his own expectations.

    The mechanics are defined by what the player can do in the game: whatever the game can read as an input. On a basic level it is only what the game can interpret in its logics and respond via an output (sound/video/motion feedback). That comprises gameplay input and output. Es.: I press space and Batman does a glide kick.

    Then comes the basics of rewarding the player according to his own expectations: If he presses X and Batman punches, he expects that if he presses X again he will punch again. He expects that if he punches a Bad guy the bad guy will be hurt and eventually be defeated.

    From here we can go one step deeper and start analyzing the gameplay not only based on the direct input/output mechanics of the game. Game and Level design, combat design, sound and graphical FX start to support the basics of gameplay I/O to deepen the experience and further reward the player: Exploring the levels via the basic movement I/O (space to jump > character jumps) with interesting platforming (rewarding mastery of the basic input). This is still gameplay because it is related to how well you coordinate the major player behaviors still defined by how far you allow the player to interact with the game.

    Player expectation has to do with the difficulty curve and scope of gameplay: some people like racing games, others like fighting games, others like shooters. Some people like intricate and difficult games to master, others like easy and engaging. This is a widely subjective parameter to grade gameplay, but unless something out of the basic gameplay is badly designed and hinders it (small fonts and a messy UI) it should be considered a characteristic, and not a defect of the game (combat is too difficult is a designer's decision, it's one of the differences between Devil May Cry and God of War, and is purely gameplay related).

    The above is what I consider to be gameplay. Again, it's not a black and white contrast of what is and what is not gameplay. Each game can have it's own gradient.

    To summarize, gameplay is how well the game rewards player interaction with its systems in order to engage the player. Be it basic loops of input/output (I press space and I jump, with good timing and precisely) or how these I/O loops are tied in the game's system (good platforming sequences that reward player exploration of the level boundaries).

    Anything else beyond that is not gameplay, but is also not irrelevant to the enjoyment of a game. Characters, narrative, sound and music, graphics, cinematics, they all serve little purpose for the gameplay itself, but they do help a great deal of immersing the player in the game's universe and help in conveying the game's message.

    If you take Batman: Arkham Asylum. Remove all of it's cenimatics and replace Batman, Joker and all the cast with a theme of Dogs versus Cats its still gonna be a good game with good gameplay. It may not have the same appeal, and it may not be a good product, and it will definatelly convey a different message and feelings. But the gameplay will be the same.

    Consider the example from "A Theory of Fun" where Koster describes a game – if I remember correctly, don't have the book with me here – about throwing prisoners in a pit for execution. You have to manage the way you throw them in the pit as to not overflow it and let them escape. When you can fill the pit entirely with their bodies, they will suffocate, die and deteriorate, making space for more prisioners. From that description you may think of a horrible game about genocide, but once you look at the other page and realize that he has reskinned tetris so that you are not anymore turning block pieces, but piling up contorted bodies, you realize that the gameplay would be as fun as tetris is.

    Gameplay =/= message. Gameplay is what constitutes a game, if the work is centered around gameplay, and everything else found in it is a support for that gameplay, its a game.

    I'm sorry for the long post. I hope it helps you understand what I see is gameplay and what is not. To further analyze your reply, everything that has gameplay is a game, but remember that we are talking about videogames here. Can a book be a game? Yes. Can a music be a game? Yes it can. But remember that the further you push the boundaries of something, more and more you run the risk of losing identity and becoming something else, or something entirely new. Just as Tower defense games pushed the boundaries of RTS games so far as to become its own category.

    Edit:

    I believe my above statements explain why QTE are so loathed by us: they are not good gameplay and are an interactive mechanic created not for the gameplay, but for the narrative and plot. In God of War they are part of the gameplay (executions, boss battles) with proper logics and gameplay I/O rewards, but on other games they are simply an interactive exception and usually end up doing more harm than good.

  • "Level with Me", my level design interview series at RPS

    Quote from Serenius

    Why do people always point to SotC as the prime example of games as art?

    It's easy.

    The plot is incomplete and not obvious: basically, everyone wonders if killing the Collosi is the right thing to do after you kill the very first one and the hero is taken over by the dark powder of dark powers that comes out of the thing. The gameplay itself is quite different from the normal and the rewards are not as recognizable as a a big shiny new sword. The single moment towards the end when

    Quote

    Agro (the horse) falls in a chasm

    has made many players feel a sentiment of loss and almost regret having to make

    Quote

    that jump

    in order to finish the game.

    It's so easy to make tangents and create analogies with SoTC, coupled with the fact that it was a somewhat widely acclaimed game with very good graphics and technology.

    I bet we could make the same points using Deus Ex:HR, Zelda or Burnout, but it would require a significant bigger commitment to writing and reading.

    Since we are lazy, that's what we do.

  • The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

    It's been like this in TES forever... I haven't seen it in-game in any shape of a tutorial or comment, but if you go on your Magic screen, under Active effects or something similar, you'll find all active blessings and such.

    Also remember that you can visit a god's shrine in a city to gain a passive buff for 8 hours and get rid of diseases. In Whiterun there is a shrine of Talos in the city center and a Shrine of the healing goddess in a temple.

    Also look for the Ritual stones to get their blessings. It's like having a second racial power, usually very useful, but only once per day.

  • Batman: Arkham City shots

    Quote from Rick_D

    i played a little of this and it is not very fun, maybe it gets better but it really didnt grip me at all

    I had a similar feeling with the previous one until I realized that it evolved in a sandbox-esque game after a couple hours. But I love the atmosphere and characters so you could call the previous statement as fanboy-esque.

  • The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

    Either look for enchanted items on shops or learn to make your own. It really helps, unless you are like me and roleplay the character =P and don't want your guy to do any enchanting =P

    I found an archery circlet on a dungeon and disenchanted it. I later crafted and archery helmet and archery gloves. The initial item was stronger then my weak enchantments (20% as opposed to my 12% items) but I'm getting better =P

    Also, anytime you go crafting/enchanting a large quantity of items, make sure you sleep on your bet to get the 10% increase on your skill advancement, as well as checking if you have any potions that increase that stat.

  • "Level with Me", my level design interview series at RPS

    You go on countering my arguments saying that gameplay = message, and ask "why would you argue a game is about something that you do only 1% of the time". But you fail to realize is that the player does much more than simply stay on the defined boundaries of the gameplay and input/output channels the game offers.

    When I play SoT, sure my only choice is to murder, as that's what the gameplay limits me. But my mind, and the relationships I make with the game, go way beyond what the gameplay allows. I'm constantly wondering who are these characters and what they mean. When I play the initial sequence of Batman: Arkham Asylum, my only gameplay option is to walk around and zoom in and out, those are the bounds of the character. Me as a player, however, am absorbing, observing, questioning and being entertained by what is presented on the screen as well as all the other meanings that come attached to it: In that moment I'm Batman, bringing the Joker to confinement, my mind is already wondering how I came to capture him and the fight that we had prior to me bringing him here.

    What I'm trying to say is that games, as any other work of art, can have as much meaning as you put in them. What games need in order to become games, however, is gameplay, otherwise they are not games, such as a painting is a painting because it uses paint on a canvas. Sure, you can push the boundaries sometimes... how about a painting with no canvas, or no paint? Yes, you can push the boundaries, and sometimes you will push it so hard that you become something else: a painting becomes a sculpture, a game becomes a movie.

    In order to properly analyze a subject, we need to define those boundaries, and for me games need gameplay, ergo they need to be "fun" as in: they must engage the player in an interactive fashion that challenges and rewards mastery of the mechanics according to his own expectations.

    If a work of art of any kind has that gameplay, then it is a game. Whatever else comes along with it (narrative, music, plot, characters) are complimentary to the core gameplay experience, and give it further ways to deepen meaning.

    That is my main gripe with the so called art games, in that they many times push the boundaries of the classification of a game so far out that they stop being games and become something else.

    You may think that I'm against art games by these definitions, but it's exactly the opposite, since taking them out of the category of "games" frees them up from the necessity of having good gameplay, and thus become able to be analyzed by their stronger aspects, such as meaning, narrative, execution, awe factor... you name it. But you must be very clear that they are not games if they don't have good gameplay, as much as most games don't have good plots because they are not novels.

  • The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

    Pffff... but are you doing it from the steam overlay without ever quitting the game?!?